Do you understand the procedure to do a fluid change on the ZF9 and the tools required? This isn't your grandmothers 1988 Buick transmission. The ZF9 H48 is a totally different beast. Not saying you can't do it, but this is not a simple drain and fill process. You might want to read this particular thread on the Passport forum. The Passport and the Pilot have the same ZF9 H48 transmission.

DIY - Automatic Transmission Fluid Change (ATF)

Information for service/replacement of the Automatic Transmission Fluid. This service should be done in conjunction with the transfer case fluid change. Summary: Factory instructions are attached below, but convoluted as others have said. After experiencing the factory procedures, a "spill and...

www.passportforums.com

 

Do you understand the procedure to do a fluid change on the ZF9 and the tools required? This isn't your grandmothers 1988 Buick transmission. The ZF9 H48 is a totally different beast. Not saying you can't do it, but this is not a simple drain and fill process. You might want to read this particular thread on the Passport forum. The Passport and the Pilot have the same ZF9 H48 transmission.

DIY - Automatic Transmission Fluid Change (ATF)

Information for service/replacement of the Automatic Transmission Fluid. This service should be done in conjunction with the transfer case fluid change. Summary: Factory instructions are attached below, but convoluted as others have said. After experiencing the factory procedures, a "spill and...

www.passportforums.com

It's probably a good idea to not do it myself. I ended up having it changed at a Valvoline store. They did #1, drain and refill.

I asked the honda dealer, they said the transmission filter is lifetime and doesn't need a change (really? I think it's a design fault to be not accessible. ) And the dealer also recommended #1, drain and refill.

 

To service a ZF9 transmission properly, it requires placing the vehicle in maintanance mode. It is DIYable.

 

While what’s posted is the “proper” way. Most dealers do a drain and fill. Been doing it for years and yet these vehicles still keep going. 😉

 

I am also pretty sure that's what Valvoline is doing. They surely did not ask me to put it in maintenance mode.
Valvoline probably knows what they are doing. They'd probably get into some lawsuits if they break vehicles very often. Seems fine.

 

Didn't know valvoline made the correct fluid

 

They really don't. They make one which they "Recommend" but which isn't approved by Honda.

 

Honda calls for Honda ATF Type-3.1 or higher.
Valvoline says the Multi vehicle is compatible with Type 3.0 and 3.1.

US_Val_MLMultiVehicle_ATF_EN.pdf - Docusign CLM

sharena21.springcm.com

Of course what is claimed and what is reality are not always the same. I can't say one way or the other so I will use the Honda fluid when the time comes.

 

Honda lists a tranny cooler for the 9 speed auto. From the instruction diagram, it appears that splicing a filter into a rubber fluid hose would be easy.🤷‍♂️

Since Honda does not make tranny fluid, plastic bottles, or bottle labels, does one know by the price paid?

 

Honda has a fluid approved for its transmission.
Valvoline has a fluid that will work in this transmission. Its called Valvoline MaxLife ATF. There are thousands of vehicles with ZF transmissions on the highways of America that have Valvoline ATF in them. There is at least one Piloteer here on the forum that used Valvoline MaxLife instead of Honda 3.1.
If I were still under warranty, I'd use 3.1

 

Honda has a fluid approved for its transmission.
Valvoline has a fluid that will work in this transmission. Its called Valvoline MaxLife ATF. There are thousands of vehicles with ZF transmissions on the highways of America that have Valvoline ATF in them. There is at least one Piloteer here on the forum that used Valvoline MaxLife instead of Honda 3.1.
If I were still under warranty, I'd use 3.1

I have a 2017 Pilot Touring and had my Honda dealer drain and refill my 9speed at 82,000 miles. They used a generic compatible ATF fluid, (can't remember which without getting the invoice). Two weeks later I had the transmission fail. The transmission was replaced under my extended warranty. Coincidence maybe, poor workmanship - maybe too. If I keep this vehicle where it need another drain and fill I will only use the Honda fluid ands it's expensive.

 

How much does ATF really change volumetrically per degree? Is it linear? Personally I can't stand how much of a PITA it is to change ATF on almost any vehicle, with these target temperatures and other BS.

I like the idea of an overflow plug that can be pulled to get the level spot on but the process of getting there is pretty annoying and the only safe way to do the final check (even if you decide to take it for a drive rather than do the maintenance mode) is to get the entire vehicle in the air level, so it's still a pain.

I hate to say it, I almost like VW's sump in a sump idea with the DSG. Fill it up and drive it. Excess fluid drops into the lower sump. Take the drain plug out and drain the lower sump. The drain plug just above that drain plug is holding fluid in the upper sump, which is where the transmission is getting fluid from.

 

How much does ATF really change volumetrically per degree? Is it linear? Personally I can't stand how much of a PITA it is to change ATF on almost any vehicle, with these target temperatures and other BS.

I like the idea of an overflow plug that can be pulled to get the level spot on but the process of getting there is pretty annoying and the only safe way to do the final check (even if you decide to take it for a drive rather than do the maintenance mode) is to get the entire vehicle in the air level, so it's still a pain.

I hate to say it, I almost like VW's sump in a sump idea with the DSG. Fill it up and drive it. Excess fluid drops into the lower sump. Take the drain plug out and drain the lower sump. The drain plug just above that drain plug is holding fluid in the upper sump, which is where the transmission is getting fluid from.

Here ya go. Please share your results.

Specific volume of a unit can be expressed as

v = 1 / ρ = V / m (1)
where
v = specific volume (m3/kg, ft3/lb)
ρ = density (kg/m3, lb/ft3)
V = volume of unit (m3, ft3)
m = mass of unit (kg, lb)

The change in the units volume when temperature changes can be expressed as

dV = V0 β (t1 - t0) (2)
where
dV = V1 - V0 = change in volume (m3, ft3)
β = volumetric temperature expansion coefficient (m3/m3 oC, ft3/ft3 oF)
t1 = final temperature (oC, oF)
t0 = initial temperature (oC, oF)

The density of a fluid when temperature changes can be expressed as

ρ1 = m / V0 (1 + β (t1 - t0))
= ρ0 / (1 + β (t1 - t0)) (3)
where
ρ1 = final density (kg/m3, lb/ft3)
ρ0 = initial density (kg/m3, lb/ft3)

😁

 

It’s no different than my 15 Tacoma transmission. In my truck I measure what comes out cold. Add that much plus half to a qrt more. I use a Bluetooth OBD reader and the Fusion app to read the transmission temp. Once the temp is met. Remove the level plug till the fluid stops trickling, done.

 

I got an A in thermo an don't care to revisit it... I just want someone to give me the information now.

 

Short answer, yes it expands. That's the reason for the hot transmission fluid check procedure for those with dipsticks. Transmission dipsticks, not relatives. 😆

 

Oh all right......
Coefficient of thermal expansion for oils and transmission fluids is around 0.0007 per degree C (0.07%/C). So, if you've got 12 liters in the pan, it will expand 0.0084 L per degree C. Since there's increased volume, and the surface area of the fluid does not change appreciably, the fluid goes higher on the dipstick. Volume = Area x Height. So, Height = Volume/Area. Therefore, height on the dipstick is proportional to volume change. Summer time temperature change might be ambient air temperature 68F (20C), at start up, to around 180F(82C) at operating temperature. Or, around 62C. Therefore, during the summertime, the fluid could be expected to expand 0.0007 x 62C = 0.0434 (4.3%).

Maybe this will help. For the NAG 1 transmission.

Happy now?????

 

Oh all right......
Coefficient of thermal expansion for oils and transmission fluids is around 0.0007 per degree C (0.07%/C). So, if you've got 12 liters in the pan, it will expand 0.0084 L per degree C. Since there's increased volume, and the surface area of the fluid does not change appreciably, the fluid goes higher on the dipstick. Volume = Area x Height. So, Height = Volume/Area. Therefore, height on the dipstick is proportional to volume change. Summer time temperature change might be ambient air temperature 68F (20C), at start up, to around 180F(82C) at operating temperature. Or, around 62C. Therefore, during the summertime, the fluid could be expected to expand 0.0007 x 62C = 0.0434 (4.3%).

Maybe this will help. For the NAG 1 transmission.
View attachment 158359

Happy now?????

Stop! Lol you win

 

Measuring what came out and using that to refill won't work on the 9-speed. Something in the internal workings means more of the fluid drains to the sump out of the torque convertor than does on the 6-speed. This is why the fill procedure is so complicated.

When I did the fluid change on my ZF8-equipped vehicle (same procedure) I got in another 1.5 qts easy AFTER doing the prescribed "drive simulation". You simply couldn't get the full amount in without the drive cycle, because the "extra" fluid is still filling the pan rather than circulating up in the torque convertor. Before doing the "drive simulation" the fluid level is at the fill hole. Afterwards, there is room for quite a bit more fluid.

 

We know that not all fluids expand or contract at the same rate or amount. Supposedly the Honda 3.1 fluid expands a lot with heat hence the specific instructions for doing the Honda written instructions for checking the proper level when certain conditions including fluid temps are met.

Easy enough to avoid any doubt by leaving the car level in the garage overnight along side the replacement fluid. Drain using an oil drain pan which will catch any fluid coming from the drain hole big enough that holds 6 or more quarts, less chance of spilling when pouring into a measuring container with larger pans.

Pour the removed fluid into an inexpensive measuring container you can pick up at Lowes, Home Depot, Dollar Tree, etc that has markings usually in ounces and mls. I have learned from experience NOT to use my wife's turkey baster or measuring cups for garage or automotive use! Measure the exact amount that came out and put in the same exact amount. Done!

If there are any visible signs of transmission fluid leaks or transmission performance problems, then you may want to have the fluid checked the Honda way to make sure you have the correct amount in there to begin with. If you are the first owner then you know how the transmission has performed and you can confidently change the fluid yourself with just a drain and fill, IMHO.

I use four Rhino Ramps Max and drive the Pilot onto them for a level and elevated vehicle. I found them for $49.99 a pair on Amazon but see they have gone up since then.

Rhino Ramps Max

 

Quick honest question. Remove the transmission fluid while it is hot into one pan and then allow it to cool to room temperature. Once cooled and if the transmission had been factory filled to the correct specification of 3.5-3.75 quarts, wouldn't the fluid you removed have shrunk or contracted back to the 3.5-3.75 quarts? While it is hot inside the transmission it may have expanded but it didn't grow in quantity or amount.

Should be no problem draining the fluid while it is hot as long as you put the correct amount back in, which would be the 3.5-3.75 quarts.

 

Nope, what drains out of the pan cold is poured back into the pan new and cold. The trans has no clue, other than on the next start it'll suck up new fluid. And the exact amount (exact as it needs to be).

 

It's a guess if its filled properly. No way of knowing if your putting in what it needs without doing the proper procedure.

 

Your ZF8 is not a ZF9 so two different transmissions. We aren't talking anywhere near 5.5 quarts in the ZF9 nor using the side fill plug hole to refill, just the top hole to refill.

 

I stand corrected!

 

I'm not sure how a properly filled ZF 9 at start could drain 3 quarts, be filled with 3 quarts, and still be 2 quarts low after a simulated drive cycle. That means 3 quarts was replaced by 5 quarts in a sealed and closed system, and somehow both volumes were correct, before and after? I can't wrap my head around that.

 

I had a dealer that did the drain and fill on my wife's '17 Elite. It was fine for a while but then the shift quality slowly became erratic over the next 1500 miles (hard on some, slow on others). I went ahead and bought some Lifeguard9 (This is what the Honda 3.1 fluid is, just rebranded ZF fluid) and did another change myself using the "official" procedure. I didn't want to deal with the dealer again. When I pulled the level check plug absolutely no fluid came out and based on what I could see the fluid it was about 3mm below the edge of the hole. It's been 5000 miles since I did the change myself and the trans shifts perfectly.

My .02? The ZF 9 Speed is extremely sensitive to fluid level. While a pain in the ass, the official Honda procedure exists for a reason.

 

I had a dealer that did the drain and fill on my wife's '17 Elite. It was fine for a while but then the shift quality slowly became erratic over the next 1500 miles (hard on some, slow on others). I went ahead and bought some Lifeguard9 (This is what the Honda 3.1 fluid is, just rebranded ZF fluid) and did another change myself using the "official" procedure. I didn't want to deal with the dealer again. When I pulled the level check plug absolutely no fluid came out and based on what I could see the fluid it was about 3mm below the edge of the hole. It's been 5000 miles since I did the change myself and the trans shifts perfectly.

My .02? The ZF 9 Speed is extremely sensitive to fluid level. While a pain in the ass, the official Honda procedure exists for a reason.

Did you happen to measure the amount of fluid you drained from the transmission? Curious if it was under the 3.5 to 3.75 quarts the service manual says is removed when drained.

 

When doing a trans fluid change, what would people recommend?
1. drain the fluid and refill
2. flush
3. also change the trans fluid filter?
Valvoline told me they can only do #1, and the trans oil filter is not easily accessible. Just curious about what other people did.
My vehicle has reached 70,000 miles and is due for a trans fluid change.

Take it to a Honda dealer. Use Honda 3.1 ATF.

I would not use Valvoline ATF on this tranny, it's long term capability is not yet known.

At this low mileage, no need to change filter. I keep to the 15k change cycle on my Honda's, but I live in an extreme climate. Its cheap insurance. The more often you change on any Honda, the less likely you will want to change the filter (if one exists)


Astrobuf

 

Take it to a Honda dealer. Use Honda ATF.

3qts drain and fill.

At this low mileage, no need to change filter. If you keep to the 15k change, probably never need to change the filter.

Should be doing this every 15,000 miles. Hope this is not the 1st change?

Astrobuf

In your reply to mavericks1970 post I believe he said he never had it done until 70000 miles so don't know where you came up with low mileage and him keeping 15000 mile changes.

If he has the 9 speed which I don't recall him saying yes or no, then 70000 miles is a bit over the usual Maintenance Minder code for the 9 speed which comes up around 60000 miles.. the 6 speed calls for around 30000 miles. There is no external filter to change on the 9 speed as there is on the 6 speed.

 

I can look this up on my own, but off the top of anyone’s head, what is the VIN code for the 9-speed transmission versus the 6?

 

Y'all focus too much on fluid out and fluid in.
focus on torque converter mechanics, see video and pics

important tools

 

When doing a trans fluid change, what would people recommend?
1. drain the fluid and refill
2. flush
3. also change the trans fluid filter?
Valvoline told me they can only do #1, and the trans oil filter is not easily accessible. Just curious about what other people did.
My vehicle has reached 70,000 miles and is due for a trans fluid change.

Only do a drain and fill and only use the Honda transmission fluid.I have a 2017 Honda Pilot Touring and that’s what I do.

 

When doing a trans fluid change, what would people recommend?
1. drain the fluid and refill
2. flush
3. also change the trans fluid filter?
Valvoline told me they can only do #1, and the trans oil filter is not easily accessible. Just curious about what other people did.
My vehicle has reached 70,000 miles and is due for a trans fluid change.

You have to disassemble the ZF9 to get at the filter, it is buried inside the trans, must remove valve assembly, then the bell housing to get to the filter.

 

For what it's worth, I have been changing the fluid in my 2019 Elite myself. It's a simple drain and fill. I use a digital scale to weigh (down to the gram) what drains out and what I put back in, which eliminates any argument over thermal expansion. My method assumes that (a) the factory put in the correct amount, and (b) that there are no leaks (I visually inspect). I am at 148,000 miles, with no issues, so I am pretty confident that this works. I use the Pentosin ATF-9, found on Rock Auto for $18.36 per liter, which is recommended for the Honda 9-speed. I buy the Honda drain plugs from Bernardi parts; you only need 2, since you are not opening the "check" plug.

 

Curious what the actual volume amount was replaced if you noted? The service manual I believe says between 3.5 and 3.75 quarts is normal. Have you been within that range? I did my 9 speed after allowing it to sit over night to ensure that the fluid was cooled and no thermal expansion and the replacement fluid was also under the car to be close to what the temperature of the removed fluid was. I replaced 3.75 quarts.

 

No, I actually just yesterday ordered some Honda HGO-1 Hypoid gear oil for the front transfer case and 2 quarts of Honda DPSF fluid for the rear differential. I did the rear differential at around 15000 miles and will do it again next oil change at 40000 miles. I am at a little over 36200 miles right now. I didn't do the front transfer oil when I did the transmission fluid around 30000 miles. Even with under $12.00 shipping fees the fluids were a bit less than if I purchased from any of the local Honda dealership parts departments. $7.99 for the DPSF per quart, $14.83 for the HGO-1, and about $3.00 of different crush washers. Purchased from Curry Acura online and they had 11% shipping discount.

I had found some heavy duty Rhino Ramp Max 16000 lbs on Amazon a while ago for $50.00 something and free shipping. I see now they are around $74.00 but check around. I had a pair already from Auto Zone purchased several years ago during one of their sales and other discounts same 16000 lbs as the ones from Amazon. Easy to drive up on all four at once and very safe with the use of additional jack stands.

When putting the oil pan I posted above away this afternoon, I saw the label and it is actually 11 quarts. I had purchased from Walmart about 6 years ago and it is actually made in the USA.