[hokiefyd]

FCA builds and programs the ZF 9 speed on their own, the Honda ZF is built by ZF and programmed by ZF so that is probably why Honda has had better reliability and drivability.

The ZF 9-speed is an interesting thing -- both from a mechanical design perspective and from a powertrain integration perspective. From my understanding, ZF provides a basic software package in the onboard transmission control module -- whether the transmission is built under license by Chrysler or built by ZF itself and delivered to an OEM. I think the "basic software package" is a very fundamental package that will provide only basic functionality of the transmission (probably basic range selection and prevent it from over-speeding itself, etc.). I understand that it's up to the OEM to provide the final software configuration and shift schedules, whether that's Chrysler, Honda, Land Rover, Nissan, or any other customer. However, since Chrysler does build these under license and (I think) has some internal design differences, perhaps its software programming is a special kind of unique.

Honda seems to have tamed this transmission in the Pilot, Passport, and Ridgeline with software updates in the 2019 time frame.

For what it's worth, I originally avoided the Pilot when we were looking for a 3-row SUV in late 2019, mostly due to the large number of complaints about the ZF transmission (and the fact that only the ZF came in the trims we were interested in). We bought an SUV from a different brand in early 2020, but sold it in December 2021 due to reliability problems, so we were back to the drawing board. I reluctantly drove a Pilot and was pleasantly surprised at how well the transmission behaved. In fact, this awful experience I had built up in my head was a total non-issue, at least in our car. We did drive it about 20 miles on the test drive. I wanted to try interstates, rural highays, stop-and-go, etc. I am very pleased with how it shifts in almost all cases. The downshifting does take some getting used to because of how the computer has to rev-match the engine in many cases (you don't get that instant engine braking you'd normally expect).

Nissan is using it in their new Pathfinder; I'm curious to see how it fares for them. The new MDX has gone to using Honda's 10-speed in all models; I presume the 2023 Pilot will have the same. My mother-in-law's 2019 RDX has the 10-speed and it's fine, but I don't think I'd necessarily choose it over the 9-speed. It starts in 1st gear (which is very short), so you always have an immediate shift into 2rd gear. I presume this is just how they programmed it -- maybe this 10-speed starts in 2nd gear in other applications. The 9-speed in the Pilot starts in 2nd gear unless you manually select 1st. And 2nd gear is still shorter than 1st gear on the old 6-speed, so I rather like this arrangement. It operates like an 8-speed auto with a granny 1st gear if you really need it. It'll get 9th gear at about 65 mph or so and it cruises very nicely at under 2,000 rpm even at 75 mph.

 

[zroger73]

From my understanding, ZF provides a basic software package in the onboard transmission control module -- whether the transmission is built under license by Chrysler or built by ZF itself and delivered to an OEM. I think the "basic software package" is a very fundamental package that will provide only basic functionality of the transmission (probably basic range selection and prevent it from over-speeding itself, etc.). I understand that it's up to the OEM to provide the final software configuration and shift schedules, whether that's Chrysler, Honda, Land Rover, Nissan, or any other customer.

That is correct.

Nissan is using it in their new Pathfinder...

And in the Infiniti QX60.

My mother-in-law's 2019 RDX has the 10-speed and it's fine, but I don't think I'd necessarily choose it over the 9-speed. It starts in 1st gear (which is very short), so you always have an immediate shift into 2rd gear.

I disliked the harsh 2-3 shift in my 2019 RDX's 10-speed - it was very unbecoming of a "luxury" vehicle. My 2018 Accord with a 10-speed had a harsh 1-2 shift.

...maybe this 10-speed starts in 2nd gear in other applications.

The 10-speed starts in 1st in all applications unless you shift to S mode then manually select 2nd.

 

[hokiefyd]

I didn't mention it earlier because I presumed it was specific to the application but I, too, do not like the "firm" shifting of the 10-speed in the RDX. It's crisp to be sure, but I just don't care for it. I find the 1st gear start to be unnecessary in almost all situations. It's usually shifting into 2nd gear after only 20 feet worth of roll-out. I rather like how the Pilot starts in 2nd unless you manually select 1st. It does seem like the 9-speed's shift smoothness is over on the other half of the scale from the 10-speed: really, really smooth. Perhaps too smooth for some people (mushy?). I imagine a lot of this is to make the shifting feel consistent, because a longer shift is mechanically required on 4-5 and on 7-8. I think it's appropriate for the segment, though, and it's never seemed "confused" to me. You can sometimes get a transmission to not know what it wants to do, especially in cases where you immediately lift off the throttle after medium-to-hard acceleration right where you think it might want to shift. The ZF...or Honda's software...or both...seems to be pretty polished to me.

 

[zroger73]

I didn't mention it earlier because I presumed it was specific to the application but I, too, do not like the "firm" shifting of the 10-speed in the RDX. It's crisp to be sure, but I just don't care for it. I find the 1st gear start to be unnecessary in almost all situations. It's usually shifting into 2nd gear after only 20 feet worth of roll-out. I rather like how the Pilot starts in 2nd unless you manually select 1st. It does seem like the 9-speed's shift smoothness is over on the other half of the scale from the 10-speed: really, really smooth. Perhaps too smooth for some people (mushy?). I imagine a lot of this is to make the shifting feel consistent, because a longer shift is mechanically required on 4-5 and on 7-8. I think it's appropriate for the segment, though, and it's never seemed "confused" to me. You can sometimes get a transmission to not know what it wants to do, especially in cases where you immediately lift off the throttle after medium-to-hard acceleration right where you think it might want to shift. The ZF...or Honda's software...or both...seems to be pretty polished to me.

Actually, it's the downshifts from 8th and 5th that are relatively long because that's when the 9-speed effectively has to shift to neutral, wait for the engine speed to increase, then engage the dog clutch. On upshifts from 4th and 7th, the dog clutch is already engaged and only has to release (no speed-matching necessary) then a traditional friction clutch is applied to complete the shift - this is only slightly different than a traditional automatic. To put it another way, the way 9-speed can upshift under load, but it's can't downshift under load from 8th or 5th - it has to momentarily interrupt engine power.

TL;DR - Upshifts on the 9-speed should feel very normal. It's downshifts from 8th or 5th when some people will notice the delay (or a sensation of acceleration when using engine braking while coasting and manually downshifting from 8th or 5th even though the vehicle isn't actually accelerating - it's simply stops decelerating as quickly which humans interpret as acceleration).

 

[osimj]

The ZF 9-speed is an interesting thing -- both from a mechanical design perspective and from a powertrain integration perspective. From my understanding, ZF provides a basic software package in the onboard transmission control module -- whether the transmission is built under license by Chrysler or built by ZF itself and delivered to an OEM. I think the "basic software package" is a very fundamental package that will provide only basic functionality of the transmission (probably basic range selection and prevent it from over-speeding itself, etc.). I understand that it's up to the OEM to provide the final software configuration and shift schedules, whether that's Chrysler, Honda, Land Rover, Nissan, or any other customer. However, since Chrysler does build these under license and (I think) has some internal design differences, perhaps its software programming is a special kind of unique.

Honda seems to have tamed this transmission in the Pilot, Passport, and Ridgeline with software updates in the 2019 time frame.

For what it's worth, I originally avoided the Pilot when we were looking for a 3-row SUV in late 2019, mostly due to the large number of complaints about the ZF transmission (and the fact that only the ZF came in the trims we were interested in). We bought an SUV from a different brand in early 2020, but sold it in December 2021 due to reliability problems, so we were back to the drawing board. I reluctantly drove a Pilot and was pleasantly surprised at how well the transmission behaved. In fact, this awful experience I had built up in my head was a total non-issue, at least in our car. We did drive it about 20 miles on the test drive. I wanted to try interstates, rural highays, stop-and-go, etc. I am very pleased with how it shifts in almost all cases. The downshifting does take some getting used to because of how the computer has to rev-match the engine in many cases (you don't get that instant engine braking you'd normally expect).

Nissan is using it in their new Pathfinder; I'm curious to see how it fares for them. The new MDX has gone to using Honda's 10-speed in all models; I presume the 2023 Pilot will have the same. My mother-in-law's 2019 RDX has the 10-speed and it's fine, but I don't think I'd necessarily choose it over the 9-speed. It starts in 1st gear (which is very short), so you always have an immediate shift into 2rd gear. I presume this is just how they programmed it -- maybe this 10-speed starts in 2nd gear in other applications. The 9-speed in the Pilot starts in 2nd gear unless you manually select 1st. And 2nd gear is still shorter than 1st gear on the old 6-speed, so I rather like this arrangement. It operates like an 8-speed auto with a granny 1st gear if you really need it. It'll get 9th gear at about 65 mph or so and it cruises very nicely at under 2,000 rpm even at 75 mph.

We didn’t even try to drive a 2020 Pilot with the 9 speed which didn’t give it a fair chance to prove how it worked, but we would of still been Concerned because of all the failures on the KL Cherokee Forum we had and still read about. My wife and I hate my 2015 Cherokee 9 speed transmission and I also had driven a 2019 Cherokee and it was not much better and still too jerky.
Also in my situation the early 9 speeds 2014-2015 Cherokees there were snap ring failures so FCA programmed out the 3,2,1 downshift to prevent the snap ring from breaking , it does not downshift to second gear when stopping you have to come to a complete stop and it goes from 3rd to 1st skipping 2nd. If you don’t come to a complete stop and go to accelerate it doesn’t know what to do and bangs into gear and can snap your head back, this was their non mechanical fix that made things worse. Other gears are jerky too and I understand the Dog Clutch difference from the regular clutch packs.
I have never seen 9th gear and it is a very small minority on the KL Cherokee forum that have actually ever seen 9th gear.
The FCA 9 speed starts in first gear except if put into Snow Mode it starts in second to prevent wheel spin, and I will bet the Honda ZF does the same in Snow Mode to eliminate that steep first gear.
so yes sounds like Honda and ZF have done a better job.

 

[Daltongang]

2020 Touring with the 9 speed with the added ATF cooler. Find it very smooth, very capable, and very useable.

Some reading on the 6 speed transmission:

6 Speed Transmission Failure - '17 EXL

Hi All, I know there's various threads out there about 6 speed transmission problems but I wanted to share my recent woes. Bought a '17 EXL in October 2017. Vehicle has the Transmission Cooler and factory hitch. Vehicle was ok until summer of 2020. Towing my 18' 3000lb RV on a cool night at...

www.piloteers.org

Troubling 6-speed transmission issue

I wasn't able to find anyone reporting issues with the 6-speed transmission, so hopefully this hasn't been an issue many others are experiencing. Yesterday, my wife and I were driving to see some family and pulled off the interstate and turned onto a local road. When I began to accelerate onto...

www.piloteers.org

2016 EX-L 6 speed transmission sporadically...

I have a '16 EX-L Pilot and about a month ago I had the 6 speed transmission slip/jerk/clunk when I first started up the car in the morning. It did a single weird slip/clunk thing about 7 or 8 different times as it was going from 0 to 10 miles an hour while I was driving around. Once it shifted...

www.piloteers.org

2020 Pilot EXL 6 speed Transmission Surge/Judder Flush...

I know there is a TSB for the 9 speed 2020 Pilots for the Touring and Elite Trim levels (Service Bulletin 20-029) but I have the same Surging/Juddering transmission issue and the dealer says that it is comparing apples and oranges for me to think this could possibly be the problem with my 6...

www.piloteers.org

The 9 speed had teething issues early on, but those issues seem to have been tamed, mostly by software changes. Of course you also have to keep in mind, it is the rare individual that comes to any kind of forum like car forums and posts how much they love their this, that or the next make and model of vehicle.

 

[hokiefyd]

TL;DR - Upshifts on the 9-speed should feel very normal. It's downshifts from 8th or 5th when some people will notice the delay (or a sensation of acceleration when using engine braking while coasting and manually downshifting from 8th or 5th even though the vehicle isn't actually accelerating - it's simply stops decelerating as quickly which humans interpret as acceleration).

Yes, you're right, and thanks for this clarification. Upshifting does feel pretty typical. The downshifts are what feel a little unusual, with those dog clutch transitions.

 

[hokiefyd]

Also in my situation the early 9 speeds 2014-2015 Cherokees there were snap ring failures so FCA programmed out the 3,2,1 downshift to prevent the snap ring from breaking , it does not downshift to second gear when stopping you have to come to a complete stop and it goes from 3rd to 1st skipping 2nd. If you don’t come to a complete stop and go to accelerate it doesn’t know what to do and bangs into gear and can snap your head back, this was their non mechanical fix that made things worse.

Wow -- that does seem like a curious response to the snap ring issue! I can certainly see how that'd be a very ungraceful behavior for the transmission.

I have never seen 9th gear and it is a very small minority on the KL Cherokee forum that have actually ever seen 9th gear.
The FCA 9 speed starts in first gear except if put into Snow Mode it starts in second to prevent wheel spin, and I will bet the Honda ZF does the same in Snow Mode to eliminate that steep first gear.
so yes sounds like Honda and ZF have done a better job.

This is also curious -- to have a final drive ratio so tall that the customer never makes productive use of the 9th speed. I have heard this -- that you have to be going like 80 mph to ever see it, and then it'll usually downshift back to 8th with any real load.

The Pilot starts in 2nd gear in all iVTM-4 modes (normal, snow, sand, etc.) if the transmission is in D mode (normal drive). If you put it in S mode, it will start you in 1st gear. 1st gear is really short, and the WOT upshift is at something like 25 mph. It's really short!

 

[osimj]

The Pilot starts in 2nd gear in all iVTM-4 modes (normal, snow, sand, etc.) if the transmission is in D mode (normal drive). If you put it in S mode, it will start you in 1st gear. 1st gear is really short, and the WOT upshift is at something like 25 mph. It's really short!

The info I found from Honda states that snow mode is the only mode that starts you off in 2nd gear, does not state which transmission 6 or 9 speed, unless I missed that.
The Honda link is below and it has a kind of a chart near the end of the article that describes each mode. 😎

Honda i-VTM4® All-Wheel Drive

Honda Intelligent variable torque management (i-VTM4®) all-wheel drive is a sophisticated and technologically advanced AWD system that uses torque vectoring on the rear axle.

hondanews.com

 

[hokiefyd]

The info I found from Honda states that snow mode is the only mode that starts you off in 2nd gear

In practice, the normal mode also starts in 2nd gear, in addition to snow mode. I said earlier that all the iVTM-4 modes have a 2nd gear start as long as the range selector is in D, but perhaps the sand and mud modes so give a 1st gear start. I haven't tested those enough to remember specifically where the transmission starts.

 

[hokiefyd]

Interestingly, it seems that some of the Jeep models are programmed for a 2nd gear start as well.

9 Speed Woes

Deleted by User. Deleted by User.

www.myjeepcompass.com

 

[hokiefyd]

Here's a Passport 0-60 run filmed, but starting in D instead of S (so it's a 2nd gear start).

First video, driven in S mode: 1-2 shift at about 25 mph; 2-3 shift at about 42 mph
Second video, driven in D mode: 2-3 shift at about 42 mph

 

[osimj]

Interestingly, it seems that some of the Jeep models are programmed for a 2nd gear start as well.

9 Speed Woes

Deleted by User. Deleted by User.

www.myjeepcompass.com

The Compass is not the same as the Cherokee, as was stated the Compass Trailhawk does not have a real PTU or Transfer case Low gear range so it look like it uses the transmission first gear to simulate a 20-1 crawl ratio Low range in the Compass Trailhawk model. My Cherokee has the AD2 AWD the step in between AD1 and Trailhawk with AD2 Lock. Mine has an actual Low Gear range 48-1 crawl ratio in the 3.2 six cylinder I have , but no rear Locker . Mine starts in 1st gear in Normal , Mud and Sand modes , Snow mode is the only mode to start in 2nd gear in the Cherokee.
Edit: according to the FCA video of the Compass The ZF 9 speed still only starts in 2nd gear in snow mode , so the person that posted that has misinformation and I never looked into it since I never wanted the Compass.

 

[osimj]

2020 Touring with the 9 speed with the added ATF cooler. Find it very smooth, very capable, and very useable.

Some reading on the 6 speed transmission:

6 Speed Transmission Failure - '17 EXL

Hi All, I know there's various threads out there about 6 speed transmission problems but I wanted to share my recent woes. Bought a '17 EXL in October 2017. Vehicle has the Transmission Cooler and factory hitch. Vehicle was ok until summer of 2020. Towing my 18' 3000lb RV on a cool night at...

www.piloteers.org

Troubling 6-speed transmission issue

I wasn't able to find anyone reporting issues with the 6-speed transmission, so hopefully this hasn't been an issue many others are experiencing. Yesterday, my wife and I were driving to see some family and pulled off the interstate and turned onto a local road. When I began to accelerate onto...

www.piloteers.org

2016 EX-L 6 speed transmission sporadically...

I have a '16 EX-L Pilot and about a month ago I had the 6 speed transmission slip/jerk/clunk when I first started up the car in the morning. It did a single weird slip/clunk thing about 7 or 8 different times as it was going from 0 to 10 miles an hour while I was driving around. Once it shifted...

www.piloteers.org

2020 Pilot EXL 6 speed Transmission Surge/Judder Flush...

I know there is a TSB for the 9 speed 2020 Pilots for the Touring and Elite Trim levels (Service Bulletin 20-029) but I have the same Surging/Juddering transmission issue and the dealer says that it is comparing apples and oranges for me to think this could possibly be the problem with my 6...

www.piloteers.org

The 9 speed had teething issues early on, but those issues seem to have been tamed, mostly by software changes. Of course you also have to keep in mind, it is the rare individual that comes to any kind of forum like car forums and posts how much they love their this, that or the next make and model of vehicle.

you have to take what I’m saying as an owner of a problem ZF 9 speed ,we’ve had trouble with one and wanted to avoid another one.
I’m glad yours is a good transmission.
Thanks for the 6 speed problem links, I will be adding to them now cause our 6 speed is being replaced right now cause it’s leaking at just over 25,000 miles from a seal and the dealer says Honda is sending a Honda certified rebuilt cause they don’t allow any to be rebuilt in a shop under warranty. We took it in to get trans fluid changed cause it was time on maintenance minder and I told to please investigate the leak first before changing fluid.So I guess I will be bashing the 6 speed too now.

 

[Daltongang]

you have to take what I’m saying as an owner of a problem ZF 9 speed ,we’ve had trouble with one and wanted to avoid another one.
I’m glad yours is a good transmission.
Thanks for the 6 speed problem links, I will be adding to them now cause our 6 speed is being replaced right now cause it’s leaking at just over 25,000 miles from a seal and the dealer says Honda is sending a Honda certified rebuilt cause they don’t allow any to be rebuilt in a shop under warranty. We took it in to get trans fluid changed cause it was time on maintenance minder and I told to please investigate the leak first before changing fluid.So I guess I will be bashing the 6 speed too now.

A Honda ZF 9 or a Jeep ZF 9?

ZF Friedrichshafen AG builds them but the individual manufacturers have the ability to program the TCU. Physically they are the same, but operationally they are different based on the programming.

 

[osimj]

A Honda ZF 9 or a Jeep ZF 9?

ZF Friedrichshafen AG builds them but the individual manufacturers have the ability to program the TCU. Physically they are the same, but operationally they are different based on the programming.

Jeep ZF 9 that is built by FCA with ZF plans (ZF does not build the FCA 9 speeds) and programmed by FCA , it wasn’t going to change my mind knowing ZF built the Honda 9 speeds because I also had read reports on the Honda 9 speed problems.
I also knew the 6 speed Hondas can have issues , but fluid maintenance and VCM deactivation was supposed to lessen those problems, guess I have egg on my face anyways even though we tried to avoid another transmission problem. 😎

 

[zroger73]

Dozens of 6-speed transmission failures have been reported on the Ridgeline Owners Club forum - and that list is only transmission replacements and not torque converter replacements, judder, overheating, and other issues. The ZF 9-speed is becoming a gem compared to the Honda 6-speed. On the ROC, there are currently 43 6-speed failure reports and many more reports of other other issues including judder and overheating. There are 2 9-speed failure reports and zero reports of judder or overheating.

 

[Nail Grease]

Dozens of 6-speed transmission failures have been reported on the Ridgeline Owners Club forum - and that list is only transmission replacements and not torque converter replacements, judder, overheating, and other issues. The ZF 9-speed is becoming a gem compared to the Honda 6-speed. On the ROC, there are currently 43 6-speed failure reports and many more reports of other other issues including judder and overheating. There are 2 9-speed failure reports and zero reports of judder or overheating.

IMO, Many 6-speed transmissions could be saved if owners would add a transmission cooler and move to a better transmission fluid. Like Valvoline MaxLife, Amalie Universal synthetic or Amsoil Signature Series blue cap ATF.

 

[hokiefyd]

ZF Friedrichshafen AG builds them but the individual manufacturers have the ability to program the TCU. Physically they are the same, but operationally they are different based on the programming.

FCA builds the 9-speed under license from ZF and there are actually several significant mechanical differences between a ZF-built 9HP48 and an FCA-built 948TE. This PDF has a good overview of those differences.

You are correct that each manufacturer programs the TCM. I imagine FCA's problems may have been poor programming compounded with poor design and engineering variations from ZF's original design, even if done with good intentions. Honda also had problems with them early on, but software programming updates seem to have resolved those.

I'm kind of a transmission snob...I'm very sensitive to shift quality, shift scheduling, etc. I rarely find an automatic that I really like, and our 2005 MDX's 5-speed is about perfect for me. Having said that, I'd describe our experience with our '22 Pilot's 9-speed so far as excellent.

 

[zroger73]

IMO, Many 6-speed transmissions could be saved if owners would add a transmission cooler and move to a better transmission fluid. Like Valvoline MaxLife, Amalie Universal synthetic or Amsoil Signature Series blue cap ATF.

Possibly. Personally, I prefer that a transmission work as advertised and intended without having to spend extra money modifying it or using a fluid that could result in denial of a warranty claim.