I'm really hoping that Honda ditches this transmission in the Touring and Elite models for 2017.

Well I have a 2020 Pilot AWD Touring and have had it drop into neutral and fail to restart after auto idle stop 3 times now. Honda blames battery depletion, auto idle stop recall was completed…. Nee battery and disabling auto idle stop every time I start the car. Just holding my breath and car shopping….

ZF Recalls Nine-Speed Automatic for Random Drops into Neutral, Only Involves Software Update - News - Car and Driver | Car and Driver Blog

 

If it sounds the same as in this video, then it's definitely the transmission.
MDX ZF9 Transmission Squeaking Sound

 

To make a long story short... 2017 Touring model transmission failure after 130k miles. Any advice on getting Honda to pay a portion of the repair costs? Dealer quoted $8400. I can't believe so many of their transmissions fail this early. SMH.

 

I got extended warranty but do not trust dealer to do the fluid job right. I'm planning to do it my self using drain and refill the same amount method. If at some point transmission fails can Honda deny my claim because I have not done the fluid change at a dealership?

 

Not unless they determine that you did not have the correct fluid amount in there and that is what caused the failure. Note I removed 3.75 quarts from my 2019 Touring 9 speed which the service manual says 3.5-3.75 is normal to remove. I purchased the car new and it has no transmission fluid leaks nor does it shift poorly so I believe the factory had the correct amount to begin with. I will continue to do my own drain and fill and I also have the Honda Care extended warranty good for another 3 1/2 years or 80000 miles.

 

The 9 speed strats on the 2nd gear when in D. Since the gear ratio of the first is 4.7 (very short) and 2nd is 2.84 ( very tall) it feels like that vehicle struggles to take off from stop. Shifting to S resolves that issue since it starts on the first gear but it reves up too high for normal driving. It feels like that a gear is missing between first and second. Something with the ratio of around 3.50 . I am not sure this transmission was meant to be starting on 2nd gear when designed but for sure feels under powered to me from stop specifically going uphill. What is your experience?

 

Not sure if my SVCM makes any difference, but on my 9AT, off the line acceleration is nice and as expected for it's size/weight, it's just a PITA with 25MPH limits in NY where we are allowed up 10 MPH over before the speed camera snaps a pic, but where I'm going with this is, is the constant gear changes from 2-5 I believe going from 18-35 in stop and go traffic, concerning me on excess wear/tear. The computer learned a bit I like to creep around 23 but have to always look at the RPM gauge to make sure it's not switching to a higher gear above around 2K RPM, as I want to keep in gear long enough for the eventual red light every two blocks. I know S can do that better, but S allows higher RPMs and I don't like the way it sounds in cabin at low creeping speeds.

Side note, I rented an BMW X5 xdrive 40i for a week recently and put that into Sport + mode, it was awesome, now really debating on getting rid of the Pilot in favor for that, really don't need the 3rd row anyways. About the only thing I really didn't like about it was the HORRIBLE auto stop, 10x worse than Honda, and the pre-tensioner on the seat belts (pulls on you with a slight tug when you first buckle up and move the car a bit.) But that power train was absolutely awesome, smiled every time I floored it to the dismay of my family in the SUV, like the old Memorex commercial, is it live or is it Memorex, no, it's an rented X5 floored on the i405 (when possible in LA traffic, lol)!

Also to note, the transmission on the X5 was butter smooth and never experience any hesitation, I think it uses the ZF8 variant.

 

I am not sure this transmission was meant to be starting on 2nd gear when designed but for sure feels under powered to me from stop specifically going uphill. What is your experience?

I think acceleration from a stop in 2nd gear is pretty strong. Heck, published 0-60 times are in the mid-6 second range, which is pretty darn fast for a 4,300-lb SUV with only a V-6 engine. Looking at some math:

The ZF 9-speed's final drive ratio is 4.33:1 and the 2nd gear ratio is 2.84:1, making for an overall drive ratio of about 12.30:1.

In comparison, the Honda 6-speed's final drive ratio is 4.25:1 and 1st gear is 3.36:1, making for an overall drive ratio of about 14.28:1. So it's shorter than a 9-speed's 2nd gear by about 15% or so.

Our 2005 MDX's 5-speed's final drive ratio is 4.38:1 and 1st gear is 2.69:1, making for an overall drive ratio of about 11.78:1. So it's taller than a 9-speed's 2nd gear by about 5% or so.

By the math, this puts the 9-speed's 2nd gear ratio somewhere in between the 5-speed's 1st gear and the 6-speed's 1st gear, which I think is reasonable. The 9-speed's 1st gear is a ridiculous 4.71:1. Multiplied by the 4.33:1 final drive ratio, and you get an overall ratio of over 20:1. That's so short, the transmission has to shift out of 1st pretty quickly after you get moving, which is pretty disruptive to a smooth drive. It's actually one of the things I don't like about Honda's 10-speed...it doesn't use a 2nd gear start and the 1-2 shift happens like halfway through the intersection after you step off from a stop sign.

 

Heck, published 0-60 times are in the mid-6 second range, which is pretty darn fast for a 4,300-lb SUV with only a V-6 engine.

Car and Driver, whose performance data is often unrealistically optimistic and performed by professional drivers on a closed course and "adjusted for conditions", measured a 2022 Pilot at 6.7 seconds 0-60 including 1-ft rollout. Consumer Reports, whose performance data is much more realistic, measured a 2022 Pilot at 7.5 seconds 0-60.

 

Car and Driver, whose performance data is often unrealistically optimistic and performed by professional drivers on a closed course and "adjusted for conditions", measured a 2022 Pilot at 6.7 seconds 0-60 including 1-ft rollout. Consumer Reports, whose performance data is much more realistic, measured a 2022 Pilot at 7.5 seconds 0-60.

Motor Trend got 6.2 seconds out of a 2019 model: https://www.motortrend.com/reviews/2019-honda-pilot-vs-2020-ford-explorer-comparison/

Regardless, my point was that it's competitive and usually at least mid-pack in a comparison test. The 2nd gear start should not make it feel lethargic.

 

I believe that was a Passport that MT measured calculated a 0-60 time of 6.2 seconds. The Pilot was 6.3 and, again, that's with rollout subtracted. Add another half second to the actual 0-60 time and take out the "correction factors" and you're in the high 7-second range for real-world acceleration. Yeah, that's not bad, but no Pilot is actually going to hit 60 in six and a half seconds.

 

I believe that was a Passport that MT measured calculated a 0-60 time of 6.2 seconds.

It was a 2019 Pilot; I provided a link to the article. Regardless (again), my comment wasn't intended to cite a particular guaranteed performance number (which is why I didn't even give a specific number)...rather, the Pilot does not struggle with the gearing setup Honda gave it.

I withdraw my statement, counselor.

 

Reading through all of these can take hours, I have a 2018 Elite, it is the wife's daily driver, it has horrible shifting when driving low speed, it currently has around 50k, are there any fixes out there?

Thanks in advance!

 

Have you taken to the dealer to check for any transmission fault codes ? If no fault codes I would ask them to first reset/upgrade the software. If that doesn't help change the fluid. That may or may not help but certainly is not going to hurt anything at 50k miles.

 

I believe it's time to change the fluid. I think it's recommended at around 50,000 miles. If she just bought it used. The trans needs to be updated to learn the new drivers drive patterns to help shift efficiently. At least this is what I was told ,and after I had the update and fluid change it drove so much better. And this was about 2 years ago still shifting very good.

 

If an update is available for a particular MY Pilot it is because they are working bugs out, not because a new driver is driving it. If you had gone in and an update wasn’t available for your particular Pilot then that would have been that. Now yes there is an adaptive learning process for the way a person drives with a ZF 9 trans , but it is constantly adapting ,if you do all city driving then take 1 long trip on the freeway it will adapt.
Fluid change is a good first plan to see if it helps.
SVCM or similar are great in my book too.

 

Try disconnecting your battery to see if the shifting pattern will "relearn" the driver's habits. Here is a link also on how to try doing it.

Relearn transmission shifting

 

I know 2019 and above 9 speeds have been upgraded both hardware and software. If still under warranty you may get lucky and get an upgraded one for free.

 

Do you have a link to any info of hardware updates in 2019 ZF 9 speeds in Hondas?
I only know of software updates. 😎

 

Has the ATF been serviced? I’d do two separate ones if the first one improves things. One service removes about 3.5 quarts of a 7.5 quart system.

Hey Nail Grease, for the back to back drain/fill for the ZF9, would they need to cycle the gears between the back to back fills or simply drain, catch what comes out, measure it, plug it back and fill same amount. Wait a minute or so, then drain again and refill? I'd assume to get the stuff that didn't drain the first time, let the ZF9 cycle the gears with the fresh 3.5 in with the old, and then do a drain/fill again....yes, it's not perfect, but the old should be further diluted, but a little would still be there. Basically, I just want to explain to the mechanic what I want done when the time comes that is the most effective. Even with the VSA / Level Check procedure, it's still not good enough esp. when you mentioned it was a 7.5 quart fill, now you have a little more of half old and a slight less than half new in there. I know it would cost more for the expensive ATF fluid, but labor should be cheaper since your doing two at once, I can imagine the Honda dealer charging $650ish for it. Thanks!

Ugh, but just had a thought, is the volume out the same volume in now that the temp of fluid is between 99F-113F as the ATF bottles are room temp. Getting a bit complicated now or doesn't matter with the level check, as the excess, once all the new fluid is up to the same temp, will be dumped out?

 

I’d do one drain and fill, measuring what drained out. Go for a drive cycling through the gears. Let cool. Then…, the only way I figure you could solve the issue of not knowing if the transmission is filled perfectly. Drain and measure. Pour in a little extra (1/4 quart). Tighten all plugs, take it for a drive, going through all of the gears. Return, with engine running and in park (104°F target transmission temp, 99-113°F range, not ECT), reach in an open fill line plug on the side of the transmission and let extra fluid drain out. Then reinstall plug. At this point you have an accurately filled 9-speed transmission.
IMPORTANT!
Do Not Exceed Temperature Range with transmission over filled while doing this procedure.

 

I’d do one drain and fill, measuring what drained out. Go for a drive cycling through the gears. Let cool. Then…, the only way I figure you could solve the issue of not knowing if the transmission is filled perfectly. Drain and measure. Pour in a little extra (1/4 quart). Tighten all plugs, take it for a drive, going through all of the gears. Return, with engine running and in park (104°F target temp, 99-113°F range), reach in an open fill line plug on the side of the transmission and let extra fluid drain out. Then reinstall plug. At this point you have an accurately filled 9-speed transmission.
IMPORTANT!
Do Not Exceed Temperature Range with transmission over filled while doing this procedure.

Thanks! Great to know, I just need to ask the shop I'm going to use how much if they are will they do this, I doubt the dealer would without it costing 2x a much. My odb2 scanner doesn't provide a transmission temp, but I think it's safe to assume in an ambient temp of 70F, no passenger/cargo load, driving sanely/RPMs low as possible, just enough for shifts, it shouldn't exceed 113F, but then again, I don't know what a typical range is for the ZF9 in 70ish weather and minimum rpm shifts if I did the driving and return to them. I'd prefer to do this myself, but in this case, I concede, I'd need help, but if I had access bendpak/lift, I would do everything, oil/ATF/differential and transfer case. The savings doing it myself, I'd use to buy the tools for it. Too bad we can't rent a lift where I live. Thanks again NG!

 

Maybe someone else will comment on how to DIY transmission temp on a 9-speed. I have a PID set up on my torque pro app that allows me to read this on my 5 and 6 speeds.
It’s a little tight, but I am able to do oil changes and ATF drain and fills parked on level ground. No ramps or lift.

 

For transmission temp reading, I don’t know if this PID will work on the 9-speed. This works on my other Honda vehicles.
OBD2 Mode and PID: 222201
Long Name: Transmission Temp F
Short Name: ATF Temp
Minimum value: -40
Maximum value: 300
Scale factor: x1
Equation: AA*(9/5)-40
Overrides PID: "Does not override any PIDs"

 

For transmission temp reading, I don’t know if this PID will work on the 9-speed. This works on my other Honda vehicles.
OBD2 Mode and PID: 222201
Long Name: Transmission Temp F
Short Name: ATF Temp
Minimum value: -40
Maximum value: 300
Scale factor: x1
Equation: AA*(9/5)-40
Overrides PID: "Does not override any PIDs"

Hey Nail Grease, sorry for the delay in replying, thank you very much for that! I've been following hondamobilemechanic and TE videos on YT, TE mentioned one scanner he bought/uses for work at the dealer from Amazon, I'll check that out, but I'll also check my current scanner, but I don't think it will, but will check for that PID. I'm currently using this one: "INNOVA 3040RS, OBD2 Scanner, Live Data Streamer, Battery/Alt Tester, Reset Check Engine Light/Brake Light/Oil Light"

 

If you follow Honda Mobile Mechanic have you seen his video from a couple of days ago? He shows a scanner which he recommends for Acura and Honda which is on sale for around $140.00 via Amazon.

Honda scanner

 

2017 pilot touring awd. 150K miles, next morning went to leave and transmission error light came on, blinking P couldnt get out of gear.
had it towed to dealer. said its the transmission $7600
wow. im original owner. mostly did highway miles. never used those special traction settings. maintenance always done. once the vehicle got closer to 100K things started going downhill.

 

2017 pilot touring awd. 150K miles, next morning went to leave and transmission error light came on, blinking P couldnt get out of gear.
had it towed to dealer. said its the transmission $7600
wow. im original owner. mostly did highway miles. never used those special traction settings. maintenance always done. once the vehicle got closer to 100K things started going downhill.

$7500?? wow.... How much is your car worth in the used market?
If I were you, I would just try to sell my car or trade in for another car at the dealership because I heard that they can get the OEM transmission with a deep discount so it won't be a lot cheaper to them.

 

$7500?? wow.... How much is your car worth in the used market?
If I were you, I would just try to sell my car or trade in for another car at the dealership because I heard that they can get the OEM transmission with a deep discount so it won't be a lot cheaper to them.

I guess that's cheaper if it's new, I remember this user [sixty3] was quoted $9K - https://www.piloteers.org/threads/z...g/threads/zf-nine-speed-transmission-problems-recalls-and-praise.114682/page-46 POST 91

"Haven’t posted in a long while…..
My wife’s 2017 Elite is dead at the dealer, transmission needs to be replaced according to dealer, quote of 9 grand.
We’ve had this vehicle from new and it has 106k miles, never towed anything and mostly carried one small woman around. Pretty bummed."

 

no transmission cooler.

we are not going to repair it and just going to junk it, body, interior, and engine still good for the amount of miles. It has an intermittent emissions light coming on , they say P0420. already did injectors recall. if its truly a cat thats another $2500-3K? so $11K just to get my 151,000 mile vehicle running.

didnt think my first honda would be like this.

if anyone in california wants to buy this as is for $6K OBO let me know. checking with companies now who would want to buy it.

Ugh, really sorry to hear that. I hope you get a good price for it, still looks really good for 2017. Doing some cursory math, of course without knowing this was going to happen to yours, and the cost of maintenance you put in, probably including a timing belt kit/tires/breaks/j35 valve adjustment/various fluid changes, it actually worked out maybe just slightly better owning it compared to a lease (high mileage lease) if you get close enough to the $6K ask. I'm paying $649 a month with 1.25K down for 36mos @10K miles per year for a 2022 Touring. I'm planning to keep mine (hopefully it works out) with HondaCare for 8 years and low mileage (around 3300 a year.) Good luck!

 

thanks for doing the math for me lol.

yea i feel like we got our money's worth , it was already paid off for about a year already. we had just hoped it would last way longer. nice not having a car payment. and its not a pleasant time to buy now with high interests, dealer markups etc. ughhhhh.

 

Sorry, can't find the thread where someone mentioned to look at this scanner and I mentioned I saw it already but declined due to network access needed. Well, I bought it since I was able to put it on a isolated/segregated network, so no issues with privacy there only other than it knowing my VIN now. Anyways, just wanted to let everyone know that this does shows the ZF9 ATF temp, but NOT the VCM status. I idled the car for 10 minutes and drove for ~10 minutes under 40MPH stop and go and the ATF hit 93.2 peak at 46F reported by the dashboard.

 

Does that scanner show torque converter clutch duty cycle (%)? That would be a good way to monitor torque converter clutch operation during engagement of VCM and during steady state VCM.

 

Not sure offhand, but I'll check and reply back tmrw once I use the car with this again for a drive to the gym around 2 miles away.

 

I did the first spill-and-fill on the ZF9HP in our 2022 Pilot today. I spent $178 at the dealer for four quarts of 3.1 fluid and one plug for the drain port. I decided I'd spend the $30 to buy a new plug for insurance against leaks and having to do the same job again. I'm glad I did buy it because the rubber seal on the plug I removed was not deformed quite evenly all the way around, which leads me to think it might have leaked if installed again and found a different orientation in the threads. I'll continue to buy a new plug each time...though it looks like there are less expensive options online (vs. buying through the dealer).

Anyway, I drained out exactly 3.9 quarts of old fluid and installed exactly 3.9 quarts of new fluid. I did not buy a new plug for the fill port...figuring the chances of leaks there are small. I did not mess with the level check plug. There are no leaks and the transaxle behaves very well, so I had no reason to suspect an incorrect level from the factory. I also reset the learned computer parameters by holding the throttle to the floor until the engine light goes out while in key-on-engine-off ignition mode. I did this with 25k miles on the odometer, and I'll probably continue to do this every 25k.

Because the odometer is on a multiple of five, I also changed the engine oil and rotated the tires. The OEM CrossContacts have 7.5/32" left. I imagine we'll get an honest 40-45k miles out of them.

 

I guess I should say also that the fluid was a pretty dark green coming out. Not black at all, but certainly darker than new. I'd say it looked pretty good based only on color and visual appearance. Our VCM has been disabled for probably half of the 25k miles, we don't have an auxilliary cooler, and the only towing is once or twice a year with a small open-bed 5x8 utility trailer for mulch or moving a large item.

 

Glad to hear you were able to get it done with no problems. My 2019 had 3.75 quarts drained when I did it around 30000 miles, now at 47000 miles and will do it again at 50000 miles. I didn't replace the drain plug but Nail Grease had posted about the Mopar plugs being the same and a lot cheaper to buy. I will have to try and find his post. No need to replace the fill plug if you used the one on top of the transmission since that is at the top and never even touches any of the fluid. I believe that took an 8mm or 5/32 allen wrench to remove and a long narrow funnel to fit in the hole and pour the new fluid in.

My OEM CrossContact Sports have 4/32 left on all four tires and I will be replacing them before too long. I mentioned I have 47000 miles on them and thought they were decent enough but will buy something else.

 

Corrected post below.

 

dtnmich actually posted about the Mopar plugs being the same for a lower cost and Nail Grease found a two pack from a different manufacturer on Amazon for even less money.

After doing some research for the ZF-9, because ZF Friedrichshafen AG manufactures the transmission, basically the same transmission is also in multiple Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep/Ram vehicles. Since that is the case, then they should have used the same plugs across those transmissions. I discovered that the plug for those other makes and models is the same as the Honda Plug 06237-5J4-010 which costs around $25 each.

The good news is that the Mopar Plug 06513212AA is in fact the exact same as the Honda plug because it comes from the same manufacturer. I purchased one and they are identical M18-1.50-12 plugs that use the 8m hex head socket. Different labels but the exact same plug as I suspected. The Mopar plug is around $9 and you can order them or go to your local Chrysler/Dodge/Jeep/Ram parts dealer. So for basically the price of 1 Honda plug, you get 3 Mopar plugs for the ZF-9 transmission.

I just wanted to let everyone know.

Nail Grease found these

Amazon.com

 

As the ZF9 is used in several different vehicles, not only should the plugs be the same, but the fluid too. Both Honda and Mopar fluid are just relabeled ZF Lifeguard 9. So it doesn't matter whether you get the fluid labeled Honda, Mopar, or ZF themselves.