Honda Pilot - Honda Pilot Forums banner

VTM-4 in the snow, poor performance?

15K views 70 replies 18 participants last post by  cintocrunch 
#1 ·
First time driving in the snow really, (had the vehicle for years), had just all season Michelin Defender XLT that are almost brand new and was surprised that I noticed little difference between D, and VTM-4 engaged, wondering if that's due to having all seasons, and that I should really have snow tires to really see the VTM-4 benefit.
Curious what other pilot drivers have experienced in the snow?
I did stop on this hill to test its traction capabilities but couldn't get her going.
133948
 
See less See more
1
#2 · (Edited)
I noticed little difference between D, and VTM-4 engaged
That's because VTM-4 engages automatically anyway if it detects slippage.

For extra traction when I'm really stuck, though, I find disengaging VSA helps. That's why they put a button down near your left knee to do that when you need to.

But a dedicated winter tire makes a world of difference. When my new Nokian Hakkapeliittas got me through a surprise dump of 16" of heavy snow in the middle of nowhere last winter, I thought to myself, "Where have you been all my life, Hakkapeliitta?"

How does Pilot with stock tires handle rain and snow?
 
#7 ·
That's because VTM-4 engages automatically anyway if it detects slippage.

For extra traction when I'm really stuck, though, I find disengaging VSA helps. That why they put a button down near your left knee to do that when you need to.

But a dedicated winter tire makes a world of difference. When my new Nokian Hakkapeliittas got me through a surprise dump of 16" of heavy snow in the middle of nowhere last winter, I thought to myself, "Where have you been all my life, Hakkapeliitta?"

How does Pilot with stock tires handle rain and snow?
The 2003 doesn't have the VSA you speak of btw. I mean I did intentionally stop on a hill in very wet snow. With momentum though it got up the hill with no wheel spin.
 
#3 · (Edited)
Just to clear up a common misconception, VTM-4 lock is not used to switch the vehicle from FWD to AWD. In normal VTM-4 not-locked operation, the car mostly sends all power to the front axle and behaves like a FWD vehicle. Continually, the VTM-4 system monitors engine torque, acceleration, and wheel spin to shift power to the rear axle dynamically when it thinks the fronts wheels are reaching their traction limits. So you don't need to do anything with VTM-4 Lock in normal snowy conditions.

VTM-4 Lock is only used at low speeds (below 18mph) and is a special mode that forces torque to the rear axles rather than letting the computers anticipate when torque is needed there. It's generally used when you're stuck as a last resort to free yourself. There are situations where VTM-4 Lock will get you going when leaving it in normal mode won't, but they're in the corners of the envelope. I'm not surprised you didn't notice much difference.

As the previous poster mentioned, if you need to be able to churn yourself out of a dicey situation with wheels spin, you need to disengage VSA.

Dedicated snow tires always make a big difference, but I doubt they would make much difference in how much VTM-4 Lock helps.

- Mark
 
#4 ·
Just to clear up a common misconception, VTM-4 lock is not used to switch the vehicle from FWD to AWD. In normal VTM-4 not-locked operation, the car mostly sends all power to the front axle and behaves like a FWD vehicle, the VTM-4 system proactively monitors engine torque, acceleration, and wheel spin to shift power to the rear axle dynamically when it thinks the fronts wheels are reaching their traction limits. So you don't need to do anything with the VTM-4 Lock in normal snowy conditions.

VTM-4 Lock can can only be used at low speeds and is a special mode that forces torque to the rear axles rather than letting the computers anticipate when torque is needed there. It's generally used when you're stuck as a last resort to free yourself. There are situations where VTM-4 Lock will get you going when leaving it in normal mode won't, but they're in the corners of the envelope. I'm not surprised you didn't notice much difference.

- Mark
Right I know VTM-4 is used only D1, D2 and R, and nice explanation of VTM-4 though I was aware about it. I was just surprised that even with VTM-4 I was unable to even crawl up the hill.
 
#6 ·
The VTM-4 system is always engaged and works automatically to send power to the rear wheels as needed.
The VTM-4 Lock button is only functional when in 1st, 2nd or reverse and up to 18 mph.
See this explanation: How Does VTM Work?

Those Michelin tires should be relatively good in snow, but, if you're going to be driving in that type of condition regularly then snow tires would be advantageous.
If possible, go back to that hill and try it in 1st or 2nd and with VTM-4 Lock selected if you get stuck.

BTW, the OP has a 2003 Pilot so there is no VSA to disengage.
 
#9 ·
The VTM-4 system is always engaged and works automatically to send power to the rear wheels as needed.
The VTM-4 Lock button is only functional when in 1st, 2nd or reverse and up to 18 mph.
See this explanation: How Does VTM Work?

Those Michelin tires should be relatively good in snow, but, if you're going to be driving in that type of condition regularly then snow tires would be advantageous.
If possible, go back to that hill and try it in 1st or 2nd and with VTM-4 Lock selected if you get stuck.

BTW, the OP has a 2003 Pilot so there is no VSA to disengage.
oh I did exactly that, stuck her in 1st, VTM-4, small pressure on the gas pedal, and just had all wheels slipping. I did this test intentionally up a hill from the main road just in case it failed I could reverse.
 
#33 ·
One feature I really liked in the 1995 Volvo 850 Turbo I owned from 1995 to 2018 was the Winter transmission mode. It had a Normal, Sport and Winter mode. In Winter mode the car started off in 2nd gear, great for snow and ice. Another feature of the winter package the car had was washers and wipers for the headlights. Back in northern IL where we lived until moving to Arizona in 2002, driving in snow and slush would result in the headlights getting pretty well covered up causing the lights to get really dim., Using the washer/wipers really helped keeping the lenses clean.

I bought OEM steel wheels, wheel covers and Gislaved snow tires for the car and used them every winter. The high performance tires that came with the car were like skis on snow and ice.That also kept the original wheels from getting damaged by all the salt. Interestingly, having checked with the two local Volvo dealers, I was able to buy the same OEM wheels and wheel covers and Gislaved tires online from a company in, IIRC, Ohio, that shipped the tires mounted and balanced overnight to me for a lower price than buying them from the dealers. The big plus was I didn't have to go to a dealer and then haul the OEM wheels with tires mounted home.
 
#12 ·
A lot of people seem to think that's how you put in 4wd. It's for getting unstuck basically. I've used it and think it works great. I also use snow tires. Don't use all season tires. There's no such thing. They are three season at best. If it's winter and you get snow, get snow tires. Huge difference!
 
#13 ·
I have to agree with everyone’s posts on this , a good brand of winter tires with the mountain logo or snow flake on the side walls will be the best choice in the winter time for our pilots. I have plowed through snow up to 2 feet easily, only thing I hate is the auto disengage after 20 mph so
You can’t ramp up any speed to hit those heavy hills . Unlike the r50 pathfinder or any closer to A real 4x4 truck.
 
  • Like
Reactions: beato1
#14 · (Edited)
The reason why the VTM4 fluids require changes every 15k miles is because this feature is continuously (more like continually--not all the time) engaged in automatic fashion. Continuously and automatically? Hmm, let's explain--it is not on all the time but engages at certain situations (automatic) with the driver doing nothing. VTM4 engages automatically everytime the vehicle is at full stop (in the morning or at the stop light) and you press the gas. However, once the vehicle reaches 18 mi/hr, the VTM4 disengages (this is the time when it's no longer engaged continuously but still in automatic mode--ready to engage at anytime). Until the next stop (and you press the gas again!). If the front tires spin, it, again engages to assist you in a slippery slope/road (no pun intended, lol) and, once again, disengages upon reaching 18 mi/hr and reverting to front wheel drive, again, as it normally should! A few inches of snow is not considered severe condition, nor a big rain. But they still present some challenges at times (esp when stopped at the light or parked after snow). This is when the auto engaged VTM4 is most effective--and you don't even have to know it! Normally though, any front wheel driven system can easily manage those situations. And so, it is there when you need it (like anti lock brake system) but doesn't intrude much. Now, there are instances when you want to disengage the automatic. Why? Some situations no longer suited for auto engage. You want to override the auto and lock it so it is forced to continuously engaged (and not disengage when you still need it). Like when you're stuck in mud, snow or going uphill with a heavy haul and it's raining. But be aware that once you reached 18 mi/hr, it will disengage again (so watch the speedometer). Why? To protect itself from overheating. This system is less costly than full time system--less fuel consumption, less maintenance and repairs, less parts to break, less weight and very reliable as proven by many thousands still in the road today! This is Honda"s version of having our cake and eat it, too! Not a perfect system but it works!
 
#16 · (Edited)
VTM4 engages automatically everytime the vehicle is at full stop (in the morning or at the stop light) and you press the gas. However, once the vehicle reaches 18 mi/hr, the VTM4 disengages (this is the time when it's no longer engaged continuously but still in automatic mode--ready to engage at anytime).
From what I've read, the VTM4 system, while "on" all the time, doesn't deliver power to the rear axle unless it thinks the front tires are losing traction or about to lose traction. Someone driving around for a day with modest throttle and dry paved roads likely would never have the VTM4 system engage the rear axle. And I think the 18-mph number is simply the speed at which VTM4 Lock feature automatically disengages and has no bearing at all on the VTM4 system unless the system is in VMT4 Lock mode.

- Mark
 
#28 ·
For 2004 Pilot:
* FWD under normal conditions
*Center propeller shaft supplies constant power to rear diff; no power to rear wheels until signaled by ECU
*Sensor array sends constant stream info to ABS+ECU; power is sent to rear wheels until slip eliminated
*VTM-4 ECU: process signals from wheel+engine sensors + possibility of slip; automatically delivers 4WD + disengages
*Rear diff: 2 electromagnetic clutches controlled by VTM-4 ECU; disengaged=FWD, engaged=4WD
*VTM-4 LOCK = Traction on demand, manually lock up to 55% to rear up to 18 mph
 
#35 ·
First time driving in the snow really, (had the vehicle for years), had just all season Michelin Defender XLT that are almost brand new and was surprised that I noticed little difference between D, and VTM-4 engaged, wondering if that's due to having all seasons, and that I should really have snow tires to really see the VTM-4 benefit.
Curious what other pilot drivers have experienced in the snow?
I did stop on this hill to test its traction capabilities but couldn't get her going.
View attachment 133948
When I read the manual under stood it to say that VTM was for lower gear only to get out of a bad snow or mud situation or pull your trailer or boat up an incline. It does not work in "D" just as Suburu's don't either, A3 transmission. For deep snow you get out of "D" which has overdrive to a lower gear like L2 or L3 and tap the brake once to get the computers to check for slip. Normally Subaru's are 80% front wheel drive and 20% rear wheel and Pilots are probably the same with their slip clutch system. GMC has a 2 Wheel drive for max gas economy, or Auto and 4WD select switch. Auto and 2WD is fine for Highway and hard surfaces. 4WD is for all snow or mud only or you will ruin the front differential as you turn the inside wheel and outside wheel are not going the same speed as the rear wheels and with snow or sand the gears won't bind up. However it make a horrible sound as the gears are locked and can't slip on dry pavement just as the Manual says and warns you against doing. It is too bad most people never read and yellow highlight the really important features and warning in their manual until they ruin they damage the car. On the plus side the GMC transmission design works so much better, I could drive through anything with both the original GMC Jimmy and the later GMC Envoy. Now with the Pilot I'm learning about the limitations but so glad I read the whole manual first and understand the VTM feature which resets automatically when you start the car.
 
#36 ·
Here's a little reading to add to all the VTM-4 fun* here:

VTM lock revisited


Get it? i.e., VTM "for" fun :)

Ok, I deserve to be "pun"-ished for that one. ?
 
#38 ·
First time driving in the snow really, (had the vehicle for years), had just all season Michelin Defender XLT that are almost brand new and was surprised that I noticed little difference between D, and VTM-4 engaged, wondering if that's due to having all seasons, and that I should really have snow tires to really see the VTM-4 benefit.
Curious what other pilot drivers have experienced in the snow?
I did stop on this hill to test its traction capabilities but couldn't get her going.
View attachment 133948
I drive a lot in snow. The most important thing is good tires. Brand new all season tires will be fine in most snow conditions you would want to drive in. Two or three year old tires won't be as good. The closer to the freezing temperature the slippery the snow becomes. The depth of the snow you are driving in is at the limit of reasonable for most vehicles. The resistance of the snow is significant. Use the VTM4 in second gear when driving in difficult conditions at lower than 19 MPH. It will help. VTM4 will not help at higher speeds.
 
#40 ·
Use the VTM4 in second gear when driving in difficult conditions at lower than 19 MPH. It will help. VTM4 will not help at higher speeds.
Why will VTM-4 "not help at higher speeds?"

My Honda is second gen. In the book say clearly VTM work lower than 18m/h.
In the 1 or 2 gear only... so you have no choice... go slowly and easy on steering
wheel, don’t change direction steeply...
I try it... over 18 disengage automatically... go very slowly and you have 4x4
but don’t rush it... take your time... the first gen is different?
Personally I think not... is the same... no 4x4 over 18m/h.
But everybody know better his car... LOL
Quoting from "the book" - aka the (2009) owner's manual:

"The variable torque management 4WD (VTM-4) system automatically transfers varying amounts of engine
torque to the rear wheels under lower traction conditions
.

If more traction is needed when your vehicle is stuck, or is likely to become stuck, you can use the VTM-4 LOCK button to increase torque to the rear wheels.

To Engage the VTM-4 Lock:
1. The vehicle must be stopped with the engine running.
2. Move the shift lever to first (1), second (2), or reverse (R) gear.
3. Press the VTM-4 LOCK button. The indicator in the button comes on.

The VTM-4 Lock will temporarily disengage when the vehicle speed exceeds 18 mph (30 km/h). The indicator in the button will remain on."

Don't confuse the VTM-4 Lock feature, which is just one of the three modes in which the VTM-4 system can operate.
 
#39 ·
My Honda is second gen. In the book say clearly VTM work lower than 18m/h.
In the 1 or 2 gear only... so you have no choice... go slowly and easy on steering
wheel, don’t change direction steeply...
I try it... over 18 disengage automatically... go very slowly and you have 4x4
but don’t rush it... take your time... the first gen is different?
Personally I think not... is the same... no 4x4 over 18m/h.
But everybody know better his car... LOL
 
#42 ·
Own a Wrangler but feel safer with the Pilot in snow / icy conditions. IMO better stability on braking, longer wheel base and auto 4WD makes for more stability compared to the Wrangler. The VTM-4 system works well for bad road conditions and I haven't used the VTM lock much but it's good to know it's there and know how to use the system. Non-technical folks like my wife need these auto 4WD systems.
 
#46 ·
It's the law here in Quebec, but even before that it was common sense and I've always done it. At least now the bozos with "all seasons" you used to be stuck behind are fewer and farther between.
 
#47 ·
Sorry man but don’t even try to compare the Jeep with something else...
I have a 2011 Pilot and 2 jeeps (2002 tj and 2013 jk) but the Jeep is
something special... a way of life that you don’t mix with... one
exception... last model...in my opinion is no more a real Jeep...
all the new thing’s added (on off assist at red light, 8 speed transmission,
2 batteries etc.) but this me and I live with that...
 
#51 ·
4.0 was 2.5 with 2 cyl. added but did the job; the 3.6 is the better
choice today even is from a van but is perfect for the Jeep; the
turbo is for today’s people who don’t know anything about the
real motor for of road adventure...the next real step is the diesel...
already sold in Europe; this is the real deal.
And the price is sky up... for my jk I pay 18000Can+tax was really
nice back in 2013; today is over 30000 LOL

Now... guys this is a Honda Pilot forum let’s come back to that.
About the 4x4 drive my 2011 Pilot go in 4x4 only in 1 or 2 gear drive
and go out at over 18m/h... I don’t understand how the others have
more choices than that....
 
#53 ·
About the 4x4 drive my 2011 Pilot go in 4x4 only in 1 or 2 gear drive
and go out at over 18m/h... I don’t understand how the others have
more choices than that....
Go read page 418 of your owner's manual about the VTM-4 System.
If you don't have a copy, then download it here: Owner's Manual | 2011 Honda Pilot | Honda Owners Site

It states:
"The variable torque management 4WD (VTM-4) system automatically transfers varying amounts of engine torque to the rear wheels under lower traction conditions.

If more traction is needed when your vehicle is stuck, or is likely to become stuck, you can use the VTM-4 LOCK button to increase torque to the rear wheels.

The VTM-4 Lock will temporarily disengage when the vehicle speed exceeds 18 mph."

Try to understand that the VTM-4 system works automatically and does not need to be turned on.
The VTM-4 system works automatically all of the time - it does not shut off at 18 mph.
The VTM-4 Lock button simply directs the VTM-4 system to send an additional amount of torque to the rear wheels.
 
#54 ·
Between our 05 Pilot and 16 CRV, I've more confidence in the Pilot's snow ability. Yes used VTM4 lock together up a very steep short no run up possible incline. Deliberately tested without lock to prove the difference and only got up with lock engaged.

Traction in bad conditions is massiveness dependent on tires,
 
#60 ·
xGS... see it, read it and more important understand it... till now
i check only the VTM button, my bad. You are right...Thanks
About the Jeep thing... no car is perfect...check this forum...
a lot of problems with the Pilot (me included), go in Jeep
forum, the same there... so, in my opinion is more about the
personal “attachment” to the car... you buy it because you
like it (design, quality, price etc)
 
#67 ·
The 4L was a good low rpm torquey engine for its time. The new Wranglers are over 1000 lb heavier in the quest to be a unique SUV for a different generation. Loaded with tech, luxury and safety equipment we are lucky to be able to use them on the trails. Going to need modern engines to power these ground pounders.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top