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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
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After replacing fuel injectors a few weeks ago because of a P219A code, injector failure on cylinder #1, It became obvious that dirty valves is a real problem for this newly designed Honda V6. Not much being said about it. I think that awareness is needed or pay the price later. Hence the reason for starting an a thread to discuss ways to combat it. I painstakingly scraped valves and used valve spray cleaner to help dissolve it. The engine is running good now after injector replacement and valve cleaning. I believe that dirty valves may be the reason for the hesitation some people are having issues with.
 
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You're talking about the TOP or the valves? WTH would that even matter?

So, IIRC the injector on third Gens is IN the combustion chamber too?

If the bottom of the valve is dirty- so is the top of the piston, and everything else in the combustion chamber, like the injectors too?
How would cleaning the top really change anything.

Again, I'm not at all saying you're wrong, just always learning.

Engines combust, things get carbon, oil, and dirty.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
You're talking about the TOP or the valves? WTH would that even matter?

So, IIRC the injector on third Gens is IN the combustion chamber too?

If the bottom of the valve is dirty- so is the top of the piston, and everything else in the combustion chamber, like the injectors too?
How would cleaning the top really change anything.

Again, I'm not at all saying you're wrong, just always learning.

Engines combust, things get carbon, oil, and dirty.
Carbon on the back of the valve effects performance. If left unchecked, it affects the way air enters the combustion chamber. It can cause poor fuel economy and misfires. It can make the engine hard to start and run rough.
 
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Its an issue everywhere. More so with cars no driven far or allowed to get hot enough. Seafoam or similar in the intake (not MAF) makes a positive difference.
 

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I believe CRC makes a product to spray into the intake beyond the MAF sensor. But it seems the trick is to use it before there is a problem.
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I believe CRC makes a product to spray into the intake beyond the MAF sensor. But it seems the trick is to use it before there is a problem.
I've used the product on a 4 cylinder Hyundai, but I question if cylinder 1 and 4 will get cleaned as much as 3 and 6 by spraying through the intake.
 

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The popular solution for other models like VW and BMW seems to be a walnut or other media shell blasting of the intake valves.

My wife and I are looking to trade in our Pilot and purchase a Highlander Hybrid. Toyotas use a port and direct injection based system so this buildup will simply never happen.

The topic of DI carbon buildup is a hot topic on Subaru forums but seems to be largely a non issue so long as people change oil on time. Noack values of the oil seem to have a significant impact on this over time too. I believe SN+ and SP rated oils are designed with Carbon Buildup and LSPI in mind (for turbos)
 
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Has any specific motor oil been identified that performs particularly well on the Noack volatility test?
Bueller, Bueller, @Nail Grease?
 

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From what I’ve seen on a “very popular” oil guy forum,
it appears that most of the degradation happens after a certain mileage. Many drivers fall into the manufacturer’s severe service category but still follow normal schedules. Suburban and urban driving definitely put more stress on the oil. More thermal cycles per interval, more inefficient driving (cold engine), short trips, etc.

It seems the new 0w-20 GF6/SP are a good option. People have had positive reviews with lab analysis of the Costco branded stuff, along with any major company’s fully synthetic option, assuming you don’t overstress the oil interval. In other words cheaper brand oil is ok, just change more frequently.

The bigger issue here, in my opinion, is longer oil service intervals, especially for drivers not following the severe interval.

Subaru has told me they intentionally avoided lean-burn type systems with their DI Boxer designs that started with the 2019 Forester refresh. I have been following severe service and I figure if I’m wrong, I’m just out extra oil changes. If I’m right, I saved a whole lot more than that.
 
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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
The popular solution for other models like VW and BMW seems to be a walnut or other media shell blasting of the intake valves.

My wife and I are looking to trade in our Pilot and purchase a Highlander Hybrid. Toyotas use a port and direct injection based system so this buildup will simply never happen.

The topic of DI carbon buildup is a hot topic on Subaru forums but seems to be largely a non issue so long as people change oil on time. Noack values of the oil seem to have a significant impact on this over time too. I believe SN+ and SP rated oils are designed with Carbon Buildup and LSPI in mind (for turbos)
Has any specific motor oil been identified that performs particularly well on the Noack volatility test?
Bueller, Bueller, @Nail Grease?
This is certainly something to look into. Using oils that were less susceptible to thermal breakdown was something brought to my attention not long ago. Thankfully, I'm not having to top off my 3rd gen Pilot on Shell Rotella Gas Truck oil, but I will be reading labels since @pilot1226 has provided more awareness. Looks like pushing the limits of an oil change might not be such a good idea on this 3rd gen.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
From what I’ve seen on a “very popular” oil guy forum,
it appears that most of the degradation happens after a certain mileage. Many drivers fall into the manufacturer’s severe service category but still follow normal schedules. Suburban and urban driving definitely put more stress on the oil. More thermal cycles per interval, more inefficient driving (cold engine), short trips, etc.

It seems the new 0w-20 GF6/SP are a good option. People have had positive reviews with lab analysis of the Costco branded stuff, along with any major company’s fully synthetic option, assuming you don’t overstress the oil interval. In other words cheaper brand oil is ok, just change more frequently.

The bigger issue here, in my opinion, is longer oil service intervals, especially for drivers not following the severe interval.

Subaru has told me they intentionally avoided lean-burn type systems with their DI Boxer designs that started with the 2019 Forester refresh. I have been following severe service and I figure if I’m wrong, I’m just out extra oil changes. If I’m right, I saved a whole lot more than that.
Thanks for these informative post. Will definitely be looking for those GF6/SP codes on my oil.
The generic cheap house oil I've never been a fan of. Seems more the reason to not use it on a 3rd gen.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Either you can try to find a professional shop that will sell you the BG products, or find out if there's a consumer product that's at least as effective.
What felt a little snake oil like is the pouring of their fuel treatment in the gas tank (1st video). Then the guy talks it up that it's for cleaning. We already know the fuel isn't sprayed on the valves.
 

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Has any specific motor oil been identified that performs particularly well on the Noack volatility test?
Bueller, Bueller, @Nail Grease?
DEXOS 1 Gen 2 specifies a Noack of 9.0 (IIRC) or better. Most name brands make a 0w-20 synthetic that meets that value comfortably. I've scoured BITOG on this topic many times better never found a more specific conclusion than that. You can find a few Noack comparison tests but it's hard to draw firm conclusions IMO.
 

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IMO the Pilot does not have a major issue with carbon buildup on the valves. It doesn't hurt to clean them but if you are using a high quality oil, checking the level frequently and changing it at an appropriate interval this is not a problem on these vehicles.

I do have a DI vehicle in the fleet (Traverse with GM 3.6) with an engine that was known to have oiling issues and carbon buildup before the refresh. Mine is a post refresh and over the 7,500 miles oil change interval my oil level moves from full to 3/4 from full on the oil dipstick. I'm not tearing my intake off and searching for problems when I'm not losing much oil.


The popular solution for other models like VW and BMW seems to be a walnut or other media shell blasting of the intake valves.

My wife and I are looking to trade in our Pilot and purchase a Highlander Hybrid. Toyotas use a port and direct injection based system so this buildup will simply never happen.

The topic of DI carbon buildup is a hot topic on Subaru forums but seems to be largely a non issue so long as people change oil on time. Noack values of the oil seem to have a significant impact on this over time too. I believe SN+ and SP rated oils are designed with Carbon Buildup and LSPI in mind (for turbos)
I just saw a video on one of the new Highlanders (V6 model, not sure if the Hybrid has the same issue). Apparently in order to replace the water pump you have to drop the transmission. Same with replacing the radiator. These are both according to Toyota's service manual that the guy had while doing a mechanical review. It's not all roses and sunshine over there, but you will certainly get great mileage with the Hybrid.
 

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DEXOS 1 Gen 2 specifies a Noack of 9.0 (IIRC) or better. Most name brands make a 0w-20 synthetic that meets that value comfortably. I've scoured BITOG on this topic many times better never found a more specific conclusion than that. You can find a few Noack comparison tests but it's hard to draw firm conclusions IMO.
The 5W-20 version of Shell Gas Truck oil had a Noack rating of 7.2 according to the sample that PQIA tested.
https://pqia.org/shell-rotella-gas-truck-full-synthetic-sae-5w-20-motor-oil/
 

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What felt a little snake oil like is the pouring of their fuel treatment in the gas tank (1st video). Then the guy talks it up that it's for cleaning. We already know the fuel isn't sprayed on the valves.
Not until it gets combusted.
 

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I do have a DI vehicle in the fleet (Traverse with GM 3.6) with an engine that was known to have oiling issues and carbon buildup before the refresh. Mine is a post refresh and over the 7,500 miles oil change interval my oil level moves from full to 3/4 from full on the oil dipstick. I'm not tearing my intake off and searching for problems when I'm not losing much oil.

I just saw a video on one of the new Highlanders (V6 model, not sure if the Hybrid has the same issue). Apparently in order to replace the water pump you have to drop the transmission. Same with replacing the radiator. These are both according to Toyota's service manual that the guy had while doing a mechanical review. It's not all roses and sunshine over there, but you will certainly get great mileage with the Hybrid.
I wonder if you have oil consumption after a certain amount - say 6,000 miles? Maybe it would be more prudent in the long term to change your oil at 6k if you're noticing consumption after that threshold.

Yes, I agree about the Highlander. For example, while they have the D4S fuel injector setup with port and direct injection, the labor costs to do any repairs with that system are considerably higher. I don't know about the internals of the newer model, aside from the fact that they are now a 4-cylinder Atkinson cycle with a planetary CVT... the previous model had a V6 which has now been discontinued.

And yes, 600 miles over a tank of fuel compared to ~250ish would make short work of the cost premium for the Hybrid. 35 mpg instead of teens is considerable. There's also less wear and tear on the vehicle as lower speeds and takeoff are controlled in a way with the eAWD system. Every company has its pros and cons. Look at Honda with the VCM thing. I just find to like Toyota's list a little more right now. And hey, no timing belt to change out, that saves me $1k every couple years!

I'd still change the oil on my hybrid Highlander at the "severe" 5000 mile interval, though. In my opinion, a once-a-year or 10k interval is too long for typical drivers. If you developed a leak shortly after your service, it could be another 11 months before it's corrected.
 
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