Honda Pilot - Honda Pilot Forums banner

1 - 20 of 32 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I picked up a 2016 EX-L RES a couple weeks ago (from this thread: Considering a 2016 EX-L. Any suggestions, problems, etc. to look out for?)

Right away it had the emissions light on, presumably from injector problems. The front bank specifically, which seems to be the more problematic of the two. Anyways, I wasn't too excited to replace the injectors since they're pricey, so instead I ended up cleaning them since I was tearing apart the intake to clean the valves anyways, so it wasn't that much more work.

I was surprised that the valves weren't worse but apparently Honda's don't get quite as gummed up as some of the Hyundai's and VW's. Here's what I saw when I cracked it open:

134561
134562


At first I didn't think they looked all that bad. But once I started to clean them I could see that the carbon was a little thicker than it looked. I used carb cleaner initially, then Seafoam. I've got to say, that Seafoam worked a lot better than I thought it would. I have a new found appreciation for it.

After carb cleaner, then after Seafoam. I used a little pick after that to get out some of the chunks. Between the carb and seafoam, the carbon turned into kind of a gel.

134563

134564

134565


134566



I let both the carb cleaner and seafoam sit for a while on the valves. After I saw how well the seafoam worked, I let it sit quite a while longer while I worked on the injectors. In order to clean them all, I had to turn the crank so that the valves were closed of course, so I wasn't able to clean all of them at the same time. I used the pick several times to try to grab the big globs. They weren't spit shined when I was done but way way better than before.

As far as the injectors:

134567


I didn't want to force the carbon back into the injector so I let them take a nice little bath in seafoam.

134568


After that I used a nylon brush and microfiber towel to clean them off followed by about another hour soak. They looked pretty darn clean after that. The 6 injector holes were clearly visible and didn't appear clogged after that.

I didn't use a new fuel line when I reinstalled them. I just made sure the lines were aligned with the fuel rails then torqued them on. I turned on the ignition at that point, which primes the fuel pump and let it sit there for about 10 minutes, monitoring the connections to make sure there was no leaking. I loosened up the line a bit to make sure the pump was initiated and sure enough, fuel sprayed out pretty hard. So yeah, it was definitely under pressure at that point. Again, tightened them up and monitored for another 10 minutes to make sure it was kosher. I took it for a drive this morning, after all the residual fuel evaporated then smelled the engine bay afterward to make sure there was no scent of gasoline. So far so good.

It's too early to tell if the light will come back on. The fuel trims are still adjusting so I can't rely 100% on the data just yet. I'll also be replacing the spark plugs with NGK Rutheniums and installing new Denso O2 upstream A/F sensors. I have those ready to go and was going to do it last night but decided to do some of these items piecemeal. I'm getting the VCMtuner in the mail today. I also did a single drain/refill of the ATF. It drained nearly an entire gallon. I filled it back up with Valvoline Maxlife. That stuff works great in the TL so I figured it would work in the Pilot. So far so good. I don't notice any difference in shifting but it was already pretty smooth to being with. I'll be dong two more over the next few days. I don't trust Honda automatic transmissions further than I can throw them so I keep the fluid shiny clean. So far my TL has 255K miles and still shifts like butter. I do a drain/refill on that one every other oil change.

If the problems persist after I'm done with the other work, new injectors might be the only solution. We'll see.

That's the progress so far :D
 

·
Registered
2020 Honda Pilot Black Edition
Joined
·
20 Posts
wow, that's impressive.. I think you need a degree to know and do these things, or at least extensive experience. I'm only at the changing cabin and engine filter level of knowledge, I won't even try more than that.. LOL..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,408 Posts
Awesome work! How dirty was the bowl of seafoam after the injectors soaked? Could you tell the injectors were clogged upon removal?

Also this is good evidence that the intake valves just don't get that dirty on these Hondas, if only the injectors weren't a known trouble area these GDI J35s would be some of the best GDI engines out there!

Also, since your buildup is on the injectors I wonder if a fuel system cleaner would help prevent the buildup from occurring again? Normally I tell people not to do it on GDI engines.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
It has 74K. I can't complain too much about the carbon considering that mileage.

Awesome work! How dirty was the bowl of seafoam after the injectors soaked? Could you tell the injectors were clogged upon removal?

Also this is good evidence that the intake valves just don't get that dirty on these Hondas, if only the injectors weren't a known trouble area these GDI J35s would be some of the best GDI engines out there!

Also, since your buildup is on the injectors I wonder if a fuel system cleaner would help prevent the buildup from occurring again? Normally I tell people not to do it on GDI engines.
Can't say for sure if they were clogged beforehand. I didn't look real close at them before I cleaned them. But I certainly couldn't tell there were 6 little holes when they were covered in carbon like I could after cleaning. I think injector cleaner might still be worthwhile but I don't think I'd pay much for it. I'll probably throw in an occasional bottle of Techron or Gumout fuel system cleaner in the tank but I certainly wouldn't pay a shop to do it.

There was a little bit of "liquified" carbon that sunk to the bottom of the bowl after I removed the injectors. The majority was still on the tips but had turned to gel. I was apprehensive to clean them with a towel on fear that I'd jam it back into the injector so I tried to do it as gently as possible. Then let them soak some more afterward. I figured since I drove it right afterward, that any gelatinous carbon that got forced back in would probably be flushed out with the high pressure of the injector. What I'm really worried about is the possibility that residual material from machining the fuel pump and lines got in the injectors, which no amount of cleaning or solvent would get out. From what I've read, that was a primary reason for some of these injectors failing - metal shavings from machining the lines and/or pump getting in the injectors. Good job Honda 😑 But with any luck this solves the problem so I can avoid spending nearly $400 on a set of new injectors.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
106 Posts
Have you ever considered using BG Products? BG Products, Inc.
For me they are a local company and have used them for years much to my local mechanics chagrin. He's a BG service provider, however where i worked got me on the BG training program. Now when they are training new providers they call some of us to use our vehicles for a day to train on. Free service for my vehicles..
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
48 Posts
I would consider installing an oil catch can to prevent gumming even more. I have a cheap $25 one installed from amazon with no issues.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7 Posts
If you have down time, you can send them away to be ultrasonically cleaned. I've done this a few times with good results.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
I have an oil catch can that I used to have installed on my TL, but uninstalled it because it never had anything in it. That car doesn't consume a drop of oil. I might install it on the Pilot at this point.

And yeah, as much as I'd like to get them really clean, I don't have too much interest in removing the head. I've been there before and don't care to go there again 😖
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Oh, and to update a bit; No codes have come back after about 50 miles except the P0430 for the catalytic converter downstream sensor. The fuel trim is perfect on bank 1 now but still close to -10 on the front. That's better than the -15% it was at before though. It's not unusual to get +/-5% but when you get to 10%, it usually means there's something fishy going on. I'm guessing that the air/fuel ratio is still off due to injectors or valves. I should have kept track of the injectors and put the front to the back and vice versa to see if the problem switched cylinder banks.

I still have to replace the upstream O2 sensors and put in new spark plugs. I replaced the PCV valve last night and did a seafoam treatment but haven't gathered data since then.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
704 Posts
I picked up a 2016 EX-L RES a couple weeks ago (from this thread: Considering a 2016 EX-L. Any suggestions, problems, etc. to look out for?)

Right away it had the emissions light on, presumably from injector problems. The front bank specifically, which seems to be the more problematic of the two. Anyways, I wasn't too excited to replace the injectors since they're pricey, so instead I ended up cleaning them since I was tearing apart the intake to clean the valves anyways, so it wasn't that much more work.

I was surprised that the valves weren't worse but apparently Honda's don't get quite as gummed up as some of the Hyundai's and VW's. Here's what I saw when I cracked it open:

View attachment 134561 View attachment 134562

At first I didn't think they looked all that bad. But once I started to clean them I could see that the carbon was a little thicker than it looked. I used carb cleaner initially, then Seafoam. I've got to say, that Seafoam worked a lot better than I thought it would. I have a new found appreciation for it.

After carb cleaner, then after Seafoam. I used a little pick after that to get out some of the chunks. Between the carb and seafoam, the carbon turned into kind of a gel.

View attachment 134563
View attachment 134564
View attachment 134565

View attachment 134566


I let both the carb cleaner and seafoam sit for a while on the valves. After I saw how well the seafoam worked, I let it sit quite a while longer while I worked on the injectors. In order to clean them all, I had to turn the crank so that the valves were closed of course, so I wasn't able to clean all of them at the same time. I used the pick several times to try to grab the big globs. They weren't spit shined when I was done but way way better than before.

As far as the injectors:

View attachment 134567

I didn't want to force the carbon back into the injector so I let them take a nice little bath in seafoam.

View attachment 134568

After that I used a nylon brush and microfiber towel to clean them off followed by about another hour soak. They looked pretty darn clean after that. The 6 injector holes were clearly visible and didn't appear clogged after that.

I didn't use a new fuel line when I reinstalled them. I just made sure the lines were aligned with the fuel rails then torqued them on. I turned on the ignition at that point, which primes the fuel pump and let it sit there for about 10 minutes, monitoring the connections to make sure there was no leaking. I loosened up the line a bit to make sure the pump was initiated and sure enough, fuel sprayed out pretty hard. So yeah, it was definitely under pressure at that point. Again, tightened them up and monitored for another 10 minutes to make sure it was kosher. I took it for a drive this morning, after all the residual fuel evaporated then smelled the engine bay afterward to make sure there was no scent of gasoline. So far so good.

It's too early to tell if the light will come back on. The fuel trims are still adjusting so I can't rely 100% on the data just yet. I'll also be replacing the spark plugs with NGK Rutheniums and installing new Denso O2 upstream A/F sensors. I have those ready to go and was going to do it last night but decided to do some of these items piecemeal. I'm getting the VCMtuner in the mail today. I also did a single drain/refill of the ATF. It drained nearly an entire gallon. I filled it back up with Valvoline Maxlife. That stuff works great in the TL so I figured it would work in the Pilot. So far so good. I don't notice any difference in shifting but it was already pretty smooth to being with. I'll be dong two more over the next few days. I don't trust Honda automatic transmissions further than I can throw them so I keep the fluid shiny clean. So far my TL has 255K miles and still shifts like butter. I do a drain/refill on that one every other oil change.

If the problems persist after I'm done with the other work, new injectors might be the only solution. We'll see.

That's the progress so far :D
That is some serious carbon build up. I believe the previous owner was buying cheap unbranded gasoline without additives or just never really got out on the highway at 70mph for long stretches to burn it off.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,408 Posts
That's nothing...

This an example of an early LLT V6 (Traverse/Acadia/Enclave) before they made changes to the PCV system.

134571
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
48 Posts
That is some serious carbon build up. I believe the previous owner was buying cheap unbranded gasoline without additives or just never really got out on the highway at 70mph for long stretches to burn it off.
Cheap fuel or not, no fuel gets on top of the valves. Any kind of fuel will not help in this situation as the injector is below the valve.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
48 Posts
The VCM being active can cause a lot of oil deposits on certain cylinders. But ya, in town driver buying cheap raw gas = dirty valves and injectors.
Again, no it does not. At least for the valves, some may argue cheap fuels is can cause injectors but I've never had an injector fail on any car and I use the cheapest fuel on those cars.


Take a look at this, notice the injectors are below the valves. The crud on top of the valves have NOTHING to do with using cheap gas. The point is that no gas is getting sprayed on top of the valves like a traditional injections.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
704 Posts
Short trip in town driver = dirty engine. Example, For 9 months out of the year, The car was drove 5 blocks to school and shut off. Cheap gas compounds this. Do you have some pictures of the top of the cylinders?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
48 Posts
Short trip in town driver = dirty engine. Example, For 9 months out of the year, The car was drove 5 blocks to school and shut off. Cheap gas compounds this. Do you have some pictures of the top of the cylinders?
Ok for the third time, clearly you don't know how direct injection works especially on a honda and you are making assumptions. FIrst it went from using regular gas to dirtying your engine now you're saying short trip driver causes a dirty engine? Seriously??

We are not talking about shutting off (VCM) we are talking about gas and it's effects on the top of the valves. And no, why would I have pictures of the top cylinder, do you to support you unproven claim? Just stop spreading false information at this point.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
704 Posts
Ok for the third time, clearly you don't know how direct injection works especially on a honda and you are making assumptions. FIrst it went from using regular gas to dirtying your engine now you're saying short trip driver causes a dirty engine? Seriously??

We are not talking about shutting off (VCM) we are talking about gas and it's effects on the top of the valves. And no, why would I have pictures of the top cylinder, do you to support you unproven claim? Just stop spreading false information at this point.
Note to self.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2 Posts
Thanks for the good pictures and information! Always wondered how bad carbon deposit was going to be on the valves. Guess i will use the GDI spray before each oil change to help reduce buildup.
 
1 - 20 of 32 Posts
Top