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Thanks, would a standard auto parts store be able to pull these codes?
Transmission system warning
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I don’t have that store chain where I live. Could possibly call?
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10 Posts
Has there been another issue that you have seen or heard of that has set this code off? Only reading that the tc is the only fix and with the amount of bad tc from these things, im almost certain this is my issue. TIA
I have the exact same issue with the same symptoms. P0741 code. drives Perfectly fine! warning comes on at about 65mph. I did the many drain and refills and no changes. But I have always changed my trans fluid religiously at 15K so I don't think it was broken down fluids... i have a 2017 6sp EX-L AWD. So now My mechanic will be replacing the torque converter... He said he will check the TC solenoid valve too. This reeeaaaally stinks$$
I put on the VCM bypass on at 50K now I have a bad TC at 77K. I do have a history of towing a small camper under the 5K limit. Mechanic said Pilots were never meant to tow a camper. Weak transmission etc... I have the trans cooler that was put on when I bought the car new! I certainly did everything right and I now have a bad TC. To double check the diagnosis I called the Honda dealer and they said when that code comes on they replace the TC and all is fine... So I'm hoping its the fix!
I put on the VCM bypass on at 50K now I have a bad TC at 77K. I do have a history of towing a small camper under the 5K limit. Mechanic said Pilots were never meant to tow a camper. Weak transmission etc... I have the trans cooler that was put on when I bought the car new! I certainly did everything right and I now have a bad TC. To double check the diagnosis I called the Honda dealer and they said when that code comes on they replace the TC and all is fine... So I'm hoping its the fix!
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My dealer stated the same in reference to just replacing the tc when that code pops up. Anyone else think these tc’s are ridiculously priced. My aftermarket diesel tc for my 800hp truck was about the same price. Just mind boggling to me. Anyway how safe is it to run with the bad tc? Wont be able to do this until after Christmas, but my wife still uses the car everyday and it drives fine. TIA
My mechanic said its ok to run for awhile with the bad TC. eventually he said the TC will start throwing debris and clog up the INTERNAL filter. ( i replaced my external one) so when that internal filter is clogged it will stop the hydraulics from flowing and the trans will not shift and it may not even move the car. It may leave you stranded. When the internal filter needs to be changed i think he said the whole trans needs to be opened up. Other damage may have been caused too by the TC breaking up debris. How long this will take is anyones guess!
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1,512 Posts
15k mile fluid intervals.
Used DW-1
A tower...but supplemental cooler when new.
50k miles with VCM enabled.
TC failure.
Likely root cause?
What things didn't appear to materially prolong, or shorten, the TC service life?
What is your cryptic answer or thoughts to what you think might be the problem? I think any tranny failure especially at less than 150-200k with regular, in this case more than normal fluid changes is disgraceful, period, and should be covered under factory driveline warranty to at least 150k.
Poor TC/Tranny design?
I will say to me and my experience and reading here. Probably having VCM active for the first 50k causing clutch slip/wear. DW-1 not great under the heat stress while towing even with aux cooler probably didn't help.
Factory induced slipping of clutches for "smooth" running on 3 cylinders.
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A Dr. Bob sized post...
A story from an engineering perspective, based on reading dozens of cases here and Honda service manual and TSB's:
Once upon a time Honda engineers initially designed a conservative, controlled, low RPM CONTINUOUS slippage system to mitigate rough torque pulses when VCM was engaged (3 cy mode), instead of exclusively relying on temperature fussy and short lived fluid-filled, electronically controlled engine mounts, like previous Gen. And I'm guessing under low torque situations (cruising, light loads...) they were right that MM-prompted ~30k fluid change intervals, and the TC clutches would last for the entire service life (150k mi?). Somewhere in design and endurance testing, someone thought they could further mitigate the roughness VCM caused under higher torque demands--and someone else wanted to eke out a few more tenths in MPG-- where the 3 cyl mode torque pulses were more vigorous and annoying. They (guessing) decided that they could allow the TC slip mode to extend to these higher torque scenarios, Heavier loads, higher cruising speeds,moderate hills, and moderate towing might have fit in that criteria. Theses changes were made (guessing) late in development, and with a manufacturing deadline looming they punted the rigorous endurance testing for the extended scenarios, and instead relied on cursory testing and computer modeling predictions.
And then they went to production.....There weren't statistically significant numbers of failures immediately in production years 2016, 2017, and by the time the TC failures became obvious through service data, several hundred thousand Pilots were in the wild, and Tesla-like over-air updates weren't available.
So Honda issues a manually applied software update to (presumably) narrow the torque range TC slippage is allowed to occur, at the expense of some NVH. The update may also may have narrowed the VCM operational range, but that would impact published MPG. Honda of course recommended to replace the abused fluid. Their hope of course is that the update is applied to enough Pilots to keep them running without error codes past drivetrain warranty. Or, more generously, that they caught enough Pilots earlier in their service life, to have addressed the issue before significant TC clutch damage had occurred.
It's also un-clear whether the late 2017 TSB for the update totally solved the TC issue for subsequent model years. Seems to have helped--only Honda would know through service data-- but still some reported TC issues through 2020 MY.
My '20 EX-L didn't appear to have abused it's DW-1 in 11k miles with a previous owner, and as I indicated elsewhere, has been perfect since then, by just disabling VCM.
In Noxema's case, 50k running with VCM enabled slowly beat the TC to death, it seems. Towing with the TC slippage strategy accelerated the kill. Fluid frequency, fluid type, an external cooler, I am convinced, would not have, did not, individually or collectively save it. The software update might have prolonged death, but likely the TC fatal damage was already done long before 50k.
The transmission cooler made no difference, I think, because the entire fluid volume (base oil) was not getting overheated, but rather the friction modifiers were being destroyed, which may have fatally change how the PCM makes adjustments to TC clutch pressure to maintain a target slip RPM, which exacerbates the fluid deterioration, until the PCM can no longer achieve target slip (i.e. the 200 rpm bobbing of the tach people observe).
And....
Looking a bit deeper into role the friction modifiers used in trans fluid--the initial hints from my use of Lubeguard years ago-- the modifiers are (mostly) designed for a specific transmission and PCM, to control the transition of torque in the last few percent (50 rpm or less differential ) of clutch engagement, and with an PCM commanded torque reduction at that point, to yield smooth, seamless shifts.
![Rectangle Line Font Parallel Pattern]()
Also it dawned on me that VML, with its empirically mentioned lower friction modifiers, might actually lead to ACCELERATED failure in the 6-speed torque converter as it might make that designed low rpm differential clutch slippage condition generate more localized clutch face shear damage (removal of material) and destruction of the critical friction modifiers.
VML, with its lower friction modifiers, of course would make for firmer shifts in the transmission proper, as those interior clutches are designed to spend their time either disengaged or rapidly transitioning towards 100% engaged, with a fraction of second spent in controlled slippage/shear. In other words, firmer shifts are the only consequence of VML for the interior parts.
Of course no one (that I am aware of) has done a single variable test on the 6-speed, by ONLY changing out DW-1 for VML and measuring fluid condition, shift performance and TC performance for a statistically significant mileage (say 15k miles or more). Even Grease (as I recall) documents somewhere in an older thread, that his Crosstour TC slip w/ VCM enabled was less but still excessive, with VML alone? How many miles before he disabled VCM...and added a cooler and flushed in fresh VML?
I harp on this topic because we CAN offer to the casual DIY an apparently very successful, and cost effective solution for these 6-speeds, just by disabling VCM and refreshing abused DW-1, without violating their conscious or the unknown long term results of using non-OEM fluids (pick yer product). Instead, we burden the casual DIY'er with highly anecdotal benefits of VML and the complication and expense of (probably paying someone else to install) an external cooler.
Musing over...
A story from an engineering perspective, based on reading dozens of cases here and Honda service manual and TSB's:
Once upon a time Honda engineers initially designed a conservative, controlled, low RPM CONTINUOUS slippage system to mitigate rough torque pulses when VCM was engaged (3 cy mode), instead of exclusively relying on temperature fussy and short lived fluid-filled, electronically controlled engine mounts, like previous Gen. And I'm guessing under low torque situations (cruising, light loads...) they were right that MM-prompted ~30k fluid change intervals, and the TC clutches would last for the entire service life (150k mi?). Somewhere in design and endurance testing, someone thought they could further mitigate the roughness VCM caused under higher torque demands--and someone else wanted to eke out a few more tenths in MPG-- where the 3 cyl mode torque pulses were more vigorous and annoying. They (guessing) decided that they could allow the TC slip mode to extend to these higher torque scenarios, Heavier loads, higher cruising speeds,moderate hills, and moderate towing might have fit in that criteria. Theses changes were made (guessing) late in development, and with a manufacturing deadline looming they punted the rigorous endurance testing for the extended scenarios, and instead relied on cursory testing and computer modeling predictions.
And then they went to production.....There weren't statistically significant numbers of failures immediately in production years 2016, 2017, and by the time the TC failures became obvious through service data, several hundred thousand Pilots were in the wild, and Tesla-like over-air updates weren't available.
So Honda issues a manually applied software update to (presumably) narrow the torque range TC slippage is allowed to occur, at the expense of some NVH. The update may also may have narrowed the VCM operational range, but that would impact published MPG. Honda of course recommended to replace the abused fluid. Their hope of course is that the update is applied to enough Pilots to keep them running without error codes past drivetrain warranty. Or, more generously, that they caught enough Pilots earlier in their service life, to have addressed the issue before significant TC clutch damage had occurred.
It's also un-clear whether the late 2017 TSB for the update totally solved the TC issue for subsequent model years. Seems to have helped--only Honda would know through service data-- but still some reported TC issues through 2020 MY.
My '20 EX-L didn't appear to have abused it's DW-1 in 11k miles with a previous owner, and as I indicated elsewhere, has been perfect since then, by just disabling VCM.
In Noxema's case, 50k running with VCM enabled slowly beat the TC to death, it seems. Towing with the TC slippage strategy accelerated the kill. Fluid frequency, fluid type, an external cooler, I am convinced, would not have, did not, individually or collectively save it. The software update might have prolonged death, but likely the TC fatal damage was already done long before 50k.
The transmission cooler made no difference, I think, because the entire fluid volume (base oil) was not getting overheated, but rather the friction modifiers were being destroyed, which may have fatally change how the PCM makes adjustments to TC clutch pressure to maintain a target slip RPM, which exacerbates the fluid deterioration, until the PCM can no longer achieve target slip (i.e. the 200 rpm bobbing of the tach people observe).
And....
Looking a bit deeper into role the friction modifiers used in trans fluid--the initial hints from my use of Lubeguard years ago-- the modifiers are (mostly) designed for a specific transmission and PCM, to control the transition of torque in the last few percent (50 rpm or less differential ) of clutch engagement, and with an PCM commanded torque reduction at that point, to yield smooth, seamless shifts.
Also it dawned on me that VML, with its empirically mentioned lower friction modifiers, might actually lead to ACCELERATED failure in the 6-speed torque converter as it might make that designed low rpm differential clutch slippage condition generate more localized clutch face shear damage (removal of material) and destruction of the critical friction modifiers.
VML, with its lower friction modifiers, of course would make for firmer shifts in the transmission proper, as those interior clutches are designed to spend their time either disengaged or rapidly transitioning towards 100% engaged, with a fraction of second spent in controlled slippage/shear. In other words, firmer shifts are the only consequence of VML for the interior parts.
Of course no one (that I am aware of) has done a single variable test on the 6-speed, by ONLY changing out DW-1 for VML and measuring fluid condition, shift performance and TC performance for a statistically significant mileage (say 15k miles or more). Even Grease (as I recall) documents somewhere in an older thread, that his Crosstour TC slip w/ VCM enabled was less but still excessive, with VML alone? How many miles before he disabled VCM...and added a cooler and flushed in fresh VML?
I harp on this topic because we CAN offer to the casual DIY an apparently very successful, and cost effective solution for these 6-speeds, just by disabling VCM and refreshing abused DW-1, without violating their conscious or the unknown long term results of using non-OEM fluids (pick yer product). Instead, we burden the casual DIY'er with highly anecdotal benefits of VML and the complication and expense of (probably paying someone else to install) an external cooler.
Musing over...
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4 Posts
Is this problem fixed, I have the same problem the car is running fine is the first time I see the message, can you tell me what you did to fix it
If I install the SVCM device, am I advised to remove it before taking the car to the dealer, or doing a trade-in? I am getting another vehicle through work so plan to sell the Pilot.
Background:
My 2017 Pilot EX-L (100,000 km) started having the RPM "juttering" issue a couple of years (~40,000 km) ago, usually at 1200rpm (any speed). My mechanic couldn't find a solution and unfortunately I didn't stumble on this forum until recently. No error codes were thrown during this time.
A month ago it finally threw the P0741 code at highway speed, then came on again a few days later also at highway speed. I did the recommended 3x transmission fluid flush and error code went away, and the RPM juttering disappeared. Unfortunately though, the P0741 came back this past weekend during a road trip. The juttering is still gone and the car seems to be shifting fine, but once I hit 95km/h the error code comes on.
I've ordered the SVCM device and will install it next week. I'm hoping the error code will go away once the device is installed. As I said, the car seems to run fine and I don't detect any issues with shifting. I also don't do any towing.
I've been driving Hondas for 30 years so this issue is definitely a let-down!
Background:
My 2017 Pilot EX-L (100,000 km) started having the RPM "juttering" issue a couple of years (~40,000 km) ago, usually at 1200rpm (any speed). My mechanic couldn't find a solution and unfortunately I didn't stumble on this forum until recently. No error codes were thrown during this time.
A month ago it finally threw the P0741 code at highway speed, then came on again a few days later also at highway speed. I did the recommended 3x transmission fluid flush and error code went away, and the RPM juttering disappeared. Unfortunately though, the P0741 came back this past weekend during a road trip. The juttering is still gone and the car seems to be shifting fine, but once I hit 95km/h the error code comes on.
I've ordered the SVCM device and will install it next week. I'm hoping the error code will go away once the device is installed. As I said, the car seems to run fine and I don't detect any issues with shifting. I also don't do any towing.
I've been driving Hondas for 30 years so this issue is definitely a let-down!
Dealerships know about VCM disabling. They just can’t do it. Yes, I’d hope the error code was not stored when trading. It took multiple drain and fills of the ATF and S-VCM to completely stop my erratic rpm gauge (torque converter clutch lock issue).
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1,637 Posts
The 6 speed transmission +VCM will eat up the torque converter clutch. Your Pilot mileage is right about where the torque converters will die due to clutch failure. By all means, install a VCM disabler, like S-VCM, and do 3x drain and fill ATF service with Valvoline Maxlife ATF. You may buy a few more years of life for your transmission.
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1 Posts
I have a 2018 and received the same warning this morning. P kept flashing. Got to work- turned it off- drove around the parking lot and message didn’t reappear. 🤦🏼♀️ I’m at 72k miles
The Pilot seems to be running and shifting fine after installing the S-VCM and doing the 3x ATF flush.
How concerned should I be about imminent torque convertor or transmission failures? Anything special to watch out for, or just keep trucking as usual?
I would also change the inline transmission filter located under the battery box as it is probably plugged. It's an easy DIY job to change it.
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7 Posts
My honda 2018 pilot EX-l honda sensing has a light “trasmission system required” when i reached 65mph and i brought to dealership and told me there is no fault in there DTC and i brought to other shop they run there computer and they get P7041 which is torque converter problem and told me change it…what will be you’re recommendation about their diagnosis?Thanks for your help
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