[royalbiggster]

Did you check the spark plugs to see if they had oil on the electrode?
Make sure you walk the seal over the tube. Set the valve cover down, and wiggle it as you press down, and get your fingers down there and push the seal down around the tube. Otherwise it gets pinched between the cover and tube, and you get leaks and it destroys the seal. There is not enough pressure, nor is there any other way the seal would tear like that. The fit is tight which gives it the sealing ability. This also makes it difficult to go over the seal the first time or 2. I always make sure each seal has made it around the tube before installing the bolts. I use my fingernails and run it around the tube, pushing the seal down.

 

[undivide]

I just put a thin coating of clean engine oil on the inside lip of those tube seals to help them slide over the plug tube.
no issues here.
I wonder how many people actually have had issues with the felpro seals. when I worked at advance auto felpro was our premium brand, and by that I mean the brand we kept in stock to sell people. every other brand was almost always a special order

 

[royalbiggster]

I always use felpro.

 

[ccbcc]

@undivide I also put oil on the seals before I installed them into the cover.

@royalbiggster By the time I read your instructions, everything is put together. I will remember the tips if I get to the seals and covers next time.

About the car: I am almost back to square one: fixing two plug seal leaks is good; installing a new IAC perhaps helps a tiny bit.

After driving a couple local shopping trips, all symptoms returned: CEL is back along with VTM-4 light; warm starts stall the engine; the crank is strong, so most likely not an ignition circuit or battery problem. Once the car is in "R" or "D" for a few seconds, it won't stall and it drives OK.

Latest codes:
-- P030{1, 2, 4, 5, 6}: all cyls misfire except #3.
-- P0300: Random misfire detected
-- P1399: misfire in any cylinder
-- P0113: intake Air Temperature Sensor 1 Circuit High Input;

At this point, my bet is not in air, fuel, or ignition/plugs, but something "global" that affects all cylinders -- timing.

Incidentally, there is a thread with awfully similar symptoms and it was that timing belt jumped one tooth:
2004 stalling when warm

The last timing belt change was in 2017 at 158K miles, about 46K miles ago. Given that it worked for over 5.5 years, is there any possibility that the timing belt tooth jumped one? Could it be that the tensioner is on its way out? How to inspect if the time belt has jumped?

 

[ckeator]

I had the same problem with FelPro and started a thread about 1 year ago: Valve cover gaskets - FelPro fail

Your symptoms of stalling and running rough when warm sound like valves to me. I recommend rechecking the clearance on the exhaust valves - as they get warm they tighten up enough to cause back pressure, leading to misfire.

Getting the motor to operating temp would not improve the symptoms if the timing was off 1 tooth, the motor would still stumble when accelerating from a full stop.

 

[ckeator]

I may have missed this - but is there any smoke from the tailpipe or any engine oil loss?

Bad valve stem seals could cause similar running problems but you usually see smoke from the pipe.

 

[royalbiggster]

Where is the gasoline odor coming from? I asked before, but maybe you didn't read it.

 

[ccbcc]

Where is the gasoline odor coming from? I asked before, but maybe you didn't read it.

When I said gasoline smell, it could be the smell of burning oil before tube seals are replaced. I don't smell gasoline any more.

There is some odor (a tad stronger than normal) in the exhaust pipe, a sign that the exhaust valves may not be closing as tightly as they should.

@ckeator I read your thread and the damaged seals look exactly what I saw in cyl#1 and cyl#4. They looked as if they were cut by a sharp knife: the rubber is still very much soft and pliable, but there is a cut/tear in the inner ring.

There is no noticeable loss of oil yet as I have refrained from driving it after the problem surfaced. The #1 and #4 plugs were soaked with oil before seals were replaced. There would have been oil loss for sure if the seals are not fixed.

I doubt that valve lash is the cause: it was adjusted in the summer of 2021, and the symptom started all of sudden about 10 days ago. More importantly, engine stalling only happened when warm start. After the car moves (either Reverse or Driving) even for a short distance, the car will not stall and the vibration is minimal at STOP or traffic light. It seems the load -- engine engaging with transmission plays a role here.

The current hypothesis: the tensioner of the timing belt started to act up and the belt may have jumped a tooth or two; with load, it may have forced the belt to behave differently from the state at start time. The symptom returns if the engine stops and starts again. This piloteer had fixed the problem which is almost identical to what I am experiencing: 2004 stalling when warm . What do you all think?

Another hypothesis: could timing belt off a tooth have accelerated the deterioration of the plug tube seal?

 

[royalbiggster]

The cut is from the valve cover and top of the tube since they didn't sit around the tube. It is the only way they fail. Otherwise they work great. Think about it the valve cover sits around the tube. If the seal didn't go down around the tube, it gets pinched between the valve cover and the tube. It is like scissors. You have to make sure the seal goes down around the tube or you damage it. If you make sure it goes down around the tube with your finger, it won't pinch it and cut it.
You will hear the tensioner when it becomes loose. Do you hear the tensioner knocking?
Did you perform the idle relearn?

Check your intake air temperature sensor

1994-2004 Honda Sensor Assembly, Air Temperature 37880-P0A-A02 | HondaPartsHQ

1994-2004 Honda part # 37880-P0A-A02 - Sensor Assembly, Air Temperature

www.hondapartshq.com

TEST

LOCATION/REMOVAL

 

[royalbiggster]

vs

 

[ccbcc]

@royalbiggster with the 2 pics, it makes perfect sense, and indeed I am to blame instead of FelPro. Just make sure I understand correctly: is the bottom picture after pushing the seal along the wall and is the top the wrong installation? I will take a second look and get to it.

Yes, I performed the idle re-learning procedure.

The air intake temp sensor: the code started new yesterday. One twist was that, when re-assembling the engine cover and intake manifold, I forgot to connect the sensor wire. Hopefully it will go away, if not, replacement is simple.

 

[royalbiggster]

Yes, the picture on top is what happened to your seals the first time, and the bottom is how it should look. That is why it looks like it was cut, because it is like scissors.
If you are still getting random misfire, take a DMM and get the battery voltage, next put positive lead on positive terminal, and put the negative lead on the engine block. You should get no voltage loss. Next start the engine and check for voltage loss. You should get no voltage loss.
You might have to do a leak test with a smoke machine. You can make your own. There are many variations, or purchase one for about $100.00 I would check your intake system for leaks.

 

[ccbcc]

Yes, the picture on top is what happened to your seals the first time, and the bottom is how it should look. That is why it looks like it was cut, because it is like scissors.
If you are still getting random misfire, take a DMM and get the battery voltage, next put positive lead on positive terminal, and put the negative lead on the engine block. You should get no voltage loss. Next start the engine and check for voltage loss. You should get no voltage loss.
You might have to do a leak test with a smoke machine. You can make your own. There are many variations, or purchase one for about $100.00 I would check your intake system for leaks.

Over the weekend, I went back and re-checked all tube seals, and found that #2 was not installed properly and was damaged. It was fixed now. I made sure that all tube seals are seated properly. However, this does not change the symptoms a bit: it starts OK cold; warm starts stall, but if I can manage to move the car, it drives OK.

I also took the time to check all exhaust valve lashes and they are all within the spec.

Today (Jan 31) I took the car to a shop near my home, they did the compression test and said that the pressure of cyl#1 is low: the needle jumped from 60psi to 100 psi range in the video they shared, and their suggested fix is to replace the engine!!?? They also pulled DTC which has only one code: P1399, random misfire. Is it time to say goodbye to her?

On a side note, the shop first suggested to replace the entire intake manifold because one bolt on the upper plenum is missing and one bolt is broken which are something I did and I knew about. But there is no air leak after they tested it. Replacing the manifold would have fixed nothing! Undoubtedly this does not help the confidence in them.

P.S. I ordered a DMM and it will arrive tomorrow, and I will measure the voltage as you suggested.

 

[royalbiggster]

You should be using a torque wrench on the engine. Especially since it is aluminum. You are turning the engine to each cylinder? It is easy to mess it up. Valve lash is a difficult job to get right. I like to verify my work by going 3 sizes larger then your target size and make sure it doesn't fit. 2 sizes larger does fit, but very snug, and 1 size larger fits snug, and your target should fit with slight drag. The weight of the screw driver on the screw can give a false reading because it makes it seem tighter then it really is. Or if you definition of slight drag is different then actual slight drag. Also you really need to torque down all the nuts and go over it one more time after finishing and torqueing down all the nuts. You also need to break loose the screw from the nut. They should move independently from each other. I also like to keep the 2 times larger gauge in place as I torque down the nuts. If you had to make adjustments when you re-checked them this last time, I'm almost certain you need to go back in and do what I suggested.
You have checked your grounds, air filter, cleaned throttle body, egr passages, do you have NGK spark plugs from a reputable source?, you have had your battery health checked, your terminals are clean, and the battery cover is also clean and free of moisture, you have a good gasket on your throttle body, you are using a top tier gas (reputable gas station), you have no vacuum leaks, your pulleys are all good, there are no strange noises, your engine fluid is at the proper level?

 

[undivide]

so they told you all other cylinders were in spec for compression except cylinder 1? they should have performed a leak down test to determine why compression is low. that will help narrow down whether or not the engine is worth repairing. still, one cylinder being slightly low does NOT explain misfires on the other cylinders. certainly bad timing can affect compression as can improper valve lash clearance. also bent valves and weak springs.
definitely beware of a shop that sells you on a fix without offering a proper diagnosis.
usually the dealership is famous for this

 

[ccbcc]

so they told you all other cylinders were in spec for compression except cylinder 1? they should have performed a leak down test to determine why compression is low. that will help narrow down whether or not the engine is worth repairing. still, one cylinder being slightly low does NOT explain misfires on the other cylinders. certainly bad timing can affect compression as can improper valve lash clearance. also bent valves and weak springs.
definitely beware of a shop that sells you on a fix without offering a proper diagnosis.
usually the dealership is famous for this

They didn't do the leak down test. They said that they would not get into fixing a leaky engine this old after they identified one cyl's pressure was low. To them, it's either replacing an engine, or no fix. They probably know what they are able to do and what they are not, or what has the right return for the time to be spent.

 

[ccbcc]

@royalbiggster

You should be using a torque wrench on the engine. Especially since it is aluminum. You are turning the engine to each cylinder? It is easy to mess it up. Valve lash is a difficult job to get right. I like to verify my work by going 3 sizes larger then your target size and make sure it doesn't fit. 2 sizes larger does fit, but very snug, and 1 size larger fits snug, and your target should fit with slight drag. The weight of the screw driver on the screw can give a false reading because it makes it seem tighter then it really is. Or if you definition of slight drag is different then actual slight drag. Also you really need to torque down all the nuts and go over it one more time after finishing and torqueing down all the nuts. You also need to break loose the screw from the nut. They should move independently from each other. I also like to keep the 2 times larger gauge in place as I torque down the nuts. If you had to make adjustments when you re-checked them this last time, I'm almost certain you need to go back in and do what I suggested.
You have checked your grounds, air filter, cleaned throttle body, egr passages, do you have NGK spark plugs from a reputable source?, you have had your battery health checked, your terminals are clean, and the battery cover is also clean and free of moisture, you have a good gasket on your throttle body, you are using a top tier gas (reputable gas station), you have no vacuum leaks, your pulleys are all good, there are no strange noises, your engine fluid is at the proper level?

I had hiatus for a few days as I am still working and couldn't spend the car looking into the problem.

To many of your questions:
1. when doing valve adjustment, yes I turned the engine and made sure that the right cyl# showed up. The observing window on the top timing belt cover is in an awkward angle and I had to use my phone to take photos to make sure that the cyl# is correct before adjusting.
2. I would have used a torque wrench. Lessons learned.
3. PLugs are NGK bought from rockauto.
4. All fluids look good.
5. I measured battery + and -: it's 13.29V when the engine is not running; 14.32V when the engine is running.
Battery + to the engine block/body: almost identical 13.28V and 14.31V.
The alternator, grounding, and battery seem rather healthy.

There is some noise when the engine runs. It's hard to describe in words. I will see if I can upload the video somewhere.

In the meantime, the symptoms do not change a bit: cold start is OK and the car drives pretty much normally; hot start chokes with visible vibration, but once I manage to get the car to move without being stalled, even for a short time, it stops stalling and can carry on OK, even at STOP and traffic light.

 

[undivide]

these engines can run just fine even with not so great compression. it could just be that particular cylinder's valves hard carbon build up that is preventing them from sealing properly. I think south main auto had a youtube video describing this exact problem on this engine. a lot of shops don't want to get into doing engine work because of the can of worms theory and they don't want to get sucked into being liable for things outside of their control. back when my engine was having serious issues the dealership didn't want to touch the engine, they wanted to sell my an entire engine to the tune of around 7 or 8 grand. same thing with independent shops, they quoted my wife and I a replacement engine based on my description of coolant intrusion into the combustion chamber. they did not even want to do a diagnostic to determine WHAT was causing the issue. another reason why I am glad I have a garage to work on my own stuff on my own time.
I still think your issue could possibly be fuel related. I had an old Jeep Wrangler that would start up just fine but as it warmed up if I stopped anywhere and turned engine off it would not want to start back up. I would have to do several key on off cycles to get the fuel primed back up because the pump was failing. I finally got around to replacing the pump and the issues completely went away. luckily these had an exposed fuel rail with a schrader valve to hook up a mechanical pressure gauge to test. prior to this I had replaced the rail because it was rusting apart from the inside and replaced the pressure regulator because of age. I even shipped out the injectors to be ultrasonic cleaned and rebuilt. huge fan of doing this to injectors while vehicle is in downtime for other maintenance. it really helps smooth out power delivery and idle.

 

[ccbcc]

it could just be that particular cylinder's valves hard carbon build up that is preventing them from sealing properly. I think south main auto had a youtube video describing this exact problem on this engine.

I still think your issue could possibly be fuel related.

Thanks @undivide, I will look for the video you mentioned!

About fuel issue: it's possible -- one symptom is that, when the car is about to stall, pumping gas can prevent the engine from dying.

 

[pilotz]

Did you try to turn on A/C when it's about to stall/die? It should adjust idle higher when A/C is turned on. If it doesn't do anything your IAC is suspect.