Honda Pilot - Honda Pilot Forums banner

1 - 20 of 38 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
12 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Lately, Pilot's lack of side curtain airbags (2nd & 3rd row) and VSC begins to weigh on me.

I read in the forum of a tragic accident involving the Pilot when the driver swerve to avoid an aggressive driver. I wonder if the VSC will help in this case. As a result I started to consider the 04 Highlander and the 04 MDX (much more expensive ;-( ) I know that Pilot has better crash test rating and less prone to rollover versus the Highlander.

Would like to know of your opinions in this matter.

Thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,140 Posts
mmx said:
Lately, Pilot's lack of side curtain airbags (2nd & 3rd row) and VSC begins to weigh on me.

I read in the forum of a tragic accident involving the Pilot when the driver swerve to avoid an aggressive driver. I wonder if the VSC will help in this case. As a result I started to consider the 04 Highlander and the 04 MDX (much more expensive ;-( ) I know that Pilot has better crash test rating and less prone to rollover versus the Highlander.

Would like to know of your opinions in this matter.

Thanks
I think you need to do some hard thinking on "Relative Risk" and all the trade-offs you make on a daily basis.

Obviously "More Safety" is always better than less, but compared to all the risks you take in a year, is the addition of Side Curtain airbags significant?
E.G Do you not take cabs without side airbags?
DO you 100% of the time use your seatbelt?
Do you 100% of the time wear a bike helmet?
Do you monitor your children 100% of the time when they are in a room with a balloon? (Yes, the rubber balloon is the second deadliest toy, after the bicycle!)

News and advertising has greatly distorted our perception of the real risk in many activities. These distortions have affected our ability to judge relative risk of activities and make rational decisions.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,140 Posts
jay said:
Several threads discuss the side curtain airbags, including this one, that one, this one, and this other one.

VSC, stability control, or traction control, is discussed here.

Mods: Does it make sense to consolidate the side curtain threads?
No.

BTW, out of all the boards I participate on, this is teh only one that seems to have a "fear" of too many threads?

Not sure if it is a rational or irrational fear?
 

·
Admin Du Jour ®
Joined
·
989 Posts
I don't think this one needs to be merged, since it's safety in general rather than a Q or comment on a specific system. Dunno...one more thread ain't gonna kill the server (knock knock knock).

I watched that video of the Pilot going off the road. I don't think VSC would've made a difference...it pretty much just drove straight off the road; there didn't appear to be any attempt at course correction or skidding going on at all. I'm not sure there was time for it, anyway -- maybe 1 sec from the left lane into the woods.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,838 Posts
Well, you can never have too much safety, but overall, I'm satisfied that the Pilot may be the safest SUV out there. My only concern is that it rides and handles a little too well. It feels like a smaller, lighter, more nimble car than it actually is. It's a 4400 pound vehicle and the laws of physics still apply. I have to avoid the temptation to push it's envelope.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,147 Posts
mmx said:
Lately, Pilot's lack of side curtain airbags (2nd & 3rd row) and VSC begins to weigh on me.

I read in the forum of a tragic accident involving the Pilot when the driver swerve to avoid an aggressive driver. I wonder if the VSC will help in this case. As a result I started to consider the 04 Highlander and the 04 MDX (much more expensive ;-( ) I know that Pilot has better crash test rating and less prone to rollover versus the Highlander.

Would like to know of your opinions in this matter.

Thanks
I agree wholeheartedly that Honda should have made side curtain airbags standard or at least optional on the Pilot. I would also rather have VSA than not have it. Both will become standard in the future, but in the past VSA has sometimes been added to address a perceived need.

The VSA added onto the '03 MDX and apparently unchanged on the '04 MDX may not result in better emergency manuvering of the MDX vs the Pilot. According to the emergency manuver test conducted by Consumer Reports, the '03 MDX with VSA still performed below average, while the Pilot without VSA was average (which I'm told for an SUV is above average). Some speculate that the softer suspension of the Pilot helps a large vehicle to perform more safely in such manuvers.

You may also know that the '03 MDX's frontal impact crash test ratings by NHTSA have been downgraded to 4-stars.

This is what Consumer Reports said in 2001 about the Toyota Highlander's performance in their emergency handling manuver:
"Emergency handling is not as capable as we'd like, but it's secure enough. ... When pushed hard, it reaches its cornering limits fairly early on. Even with electronic stability control, which helps keep it on course, the Highlander proved a little slow and sloppy when negotiating our emergency-avoidance maneuvers."
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/toyotahighlanderclub/message/1264?source=1

Read also what R. David Little, Sr VP at Consumers Union said last year (4/22/02):

"Since May 2000, we have tested 27 vehicles equipped with electronic stability control, six of which were SUVs. Stability control made a marked performance improvement in our emergency avoidance maneuver tests on all but two of the 27 (not the Toyota Highlander and not the Acura TL)."
http://www.consumersunion.org/products/pittle402.htm

Sorry if some of this is a bit old and borrrowed. Does anyone have access to more recent test data or more recent characterizations?

Bottom line. While the Pilot may have some marginally better safety scores than the Highlander (3-star rollover rating) and MDX (below average emergency handling), all 3 SUVs are very safe automobiles by current standards. All can and should be made safer, but the driver (and other drivers) are the biggest liability.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
111 Posts
I posted on another thread but it bears repeating. there has been extensive real world statistical studies done of Electorinic Stability Control (ESC) / Automatic Vehicle Stabuility (AVS) in Japan and Germany. These statistics include stuidies of the same make and model with and without these systems.

End result? ECS is probalby the single biggest advance in vehicle safety since seat belts.

Real world studies show a lot more than artificial studies. For example ABS brakes are the biggest safey hoax in years. The exact same vehicle with ABS is actually slightly more likley to get you killed then without! Per mile driven in the exact same year highly rated Nissan Quest vs the bottom rated GM minivans it turns out you are much more likly to die in a Nissan!

But the ESC is already proven to be a major life saver. Some 40% of fatalities in SUV's are rollover. ESC in an SUV prevents over 30% of rollovers. In a vehicle like the pilot the manufacture cost of ESC would be +/- $400. Why it isn't in the pilot which is so safety and family marketed I just can't understand.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
6,729 Posts
Geo said:

~snip~
For example ABS brakes are the biggest safey hoax in years. The exact same vehicle with ABS is actually slightly more likley to get you killed then without!
~snip~

I have a hard time understanding how ABS is more likely to get you killed. It's one thing to state that with ABS brakes your actual stopping distance will be greater than with conventional brakes under ideal conditions by a skilled driver. But in "real world" in panic situations and less than ideal road surfaces, ABS will provide shorter stopping distances.

:)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
66 Posts
Electorinic Stability Control

I think ESC would have been nice but for now we just have to fall back on one very important key FACT, and that is the Honda Pilot has one of the best engineered suspension systems. That is why it was rated, along with the Nissan Murano, the best in SUV to NOT roll over in a panic situation. I would think that if the Honda Pilot went up against a Ford Explorer with ESC, the pilot would still win. Get underneath your pilot and look at the complexity of the rear suspension. looks a lot like what BMW did on the X-5 and what VW just did in its new SUV, but in my opinion, Honda did a better job. The Pilot may not have a Sun Roof, but if the Pilot ever rolled over, you might be glad it does not! Put the Pedal to the Metal!! and check your tire air pressure monthly! 32-34 lbs... 75 and Sunny in San Diego!! Happy Turkey Day folks!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,283 Posts
How can ABS put you at a greater risk? I can understand it if a driver has a false sense of security and becomes overconfident on slick roads. (Kinda like people that think 4WD or AWD makes you invincible - sure it helps you get going, but it won't help you stop any better). What's the drawback to ABS?:confused:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
71 Posts
I too would be curious to know how ABS makes you more likely to get killed. I do know that most people are misinformed about what the ABS does and how to effectively use it, and thus may get in trouble because of overconfidence. Maybe that explains the statistics(?) Geo is talking about?

Colorider is right in that ABS does not reduce your shortest possible stopping distance in a given case, unlike what a lot of people think. For a person who knows what ABS is for, and is also not an experienced racecar driver, chances are they're better of with ABS than without.

Berk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,763 Posts
I've taken 2 advance driving courses in the past year, the most recent one was geared towards very aggressive driving & still do it safely(believe me, it can be done). The instructors on the last course cited the stats stating that non abs equipped vehicles performed better than their abs equipped counterparts in emergency situations ie sudden stops, lane change & collision avoidance excercises.

Car manufacturers will continue to build bigger, better & faster cars since that is what some comsumers want. Here lies the problem, the performance of these vehicles far exceeds the ability of most drivers to safely operate such a vehicle. We are so dependent on technology that we expect manufacturers to invent a device so that it reduces a vehicle's chances of rolling over instead of learning the necessary skill to operate the vehicle to avoid a roll over scenario.

We should all take time to improve our skills as drivers & be less dependent on our vehicle's ABS, VSC, etc... etc... etc...

Let us all drive safely.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
111 Posts
I don't wish to be provocative. But consumer reports and the insurance insitute have both now noted that ABS is one of the clearest examples of a technology that should help, but does not.

EVS on the other hand clearly does work. statistics are in short supply in the US due to low market penetration, but statistics in Europe are ample. I will post some in a few days. These include both test and real world comparisions between the same make and model vehicles with and without EVS.

Lastly I did err in the presentation of one statistic, I underemphasised rollover deaths in SUV's. Right now the latest data is over 2/3's of SUV fatalities due to rollovers. This makes rollover prevention even more important.

Also keep in mind the NHTSA rollover test is really artificially. It is a static test in 2003 vehicles and before. Which is why EVS hasn't moved any statisitics. This year it will inculde dynamic testing, but the very common fish-hook rollover still needs to be included.

I got interested in the data because we were looking at min-vans some time ago. the General motors mini vans consistantly had the worst safety ratings in testing by the insurance insitute and the nhtsa, yet when I looked at the actual statisitics of death and injury (and that is per mile so sales numbers don't matter) the gm numbers were way better than average.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
66 Posts
ABS and riding a bike!

In 1990 I got my very first Mountain Bike with a Rock Shock front suspension! I felt like I could go anywhere and no rut-in the road or ditch would not be passable. After all, Front Shocks on motorcycles work, why not on a Mountain Bike! Well when I decided to venture into a very bad rut on a fire road (Now Burned up from the San Diego fire) I felt Invincible, but like ABS breaks, I had a false expectation and over the front bar I went when my shock bottomed out. Since then, and almost 13 years latter and now at age 55, I have never had that happen to me again. I had a false sense of security and learned the true limitations of my bike very fast. ABS breaks won't stop you on a dime on icy roads, you just need to SLOW DOWN and understand the limitations of your vehicle. If you have Integriti Tires, slow down even more. I agree that all these safety features can give you an edge, but nothing is better than safe driving, slow down, and keep your vehicle properly maintained! Did I say Pedal to the Metal?? :)))
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
725 Posts
Great Responses

"N_Jay" and "borg" win the day with their intelligent, well stated comments.

As for "geo's" belief that ABS is worse than not having it..... maybe it's time for "geo" to take a true "driver's" class!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
111 Posts
Well on the other hand PILOTinginCO seems to be making insults when they haven't bothered to read any of the recent data. do you have data showing ABS decreases fatalities for the equipped vehicle? I'll answer. No.

What we do know for certain is ABS increases rollover rates in suv's like the Pilot. that is where close to 70% of passenger fatalities occur in suv's. So you are less likly to kill someone on the crosswalk or another vehcilce but more likely to have someone in your vehcile get killed in an abs vehicle.



4. Do car antilocks reduce crashes? Although car antilocks perform well on the test track, there's no evidence they have made significant reductions in the number of on-the-road crashes. A 1994 Highway Loss Data Institute (HLDI) study and a subsequent 1995 study compare insurance claims for groups of otherwise identical cars with and without antilocks, finding no differences in the overall frequency or cost of crashes for which insurance claims for vehicle damage are filed. Because antilocks should make the most difference on wet and slippery roads, researchers also studied insurance claims experience in 29 northern states during winter months. Even here they found no difference in the frequency of insurance claims for vehicles with and without antilock brakes. A 1996 Institute study, as well as a 2000 update, reported no difference in the overall fatal crash involvement of cars with and without antilocks.

Federal studies of car antilocks are consistent with Institute and HLDI findings. According to one federal report, "the overall, net effect of antilock brakes" on both police-reported crashes and fatal crashes "was close to zero." The federal studies of effects of antilocks on passenger vehicle crashes found positive effects on wet roads and negative effects for run-off-road crashes. These two opposite results cancel each other. Leonard Evans, a researcher with General Motors, reported that antilock-equipped cars were less likely to rear-end other vehicles but more likely to have other vehicles rear-end them. Again, the net result was little effect on overall crash risk. In a study done for auto manufacturers, Failure Analysis Associates reported a net beneficial effect of antilocks on nonfatal crashes but no effect on fatal crashes.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
49 Posts
Where is in the article did it said I would likely kill myself or my passanger when I have ABS? All It said there is no significant different between ABS and Non ABS car.

' A 1996 Institute study, as well as a 2000 update, reported no difference in the overall fatal crash involvement of cars with and without antilocks. '
 
1 - 20 of 38 Posts
Top