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Discussion Starter #1
Not satisfied with the brakes on our 2013 Pilot, and fully aware that the brake rotors on newer Hondas are prone to warping early because I had this same issue with a 2003 Acura TL. We bought the vehicle new and had to have the rotors resurfaced at 22K. Now, at 45K, the pulsing/shaking in the steering wheel has returned. Going to have a talk with the dealer to see what they will do, but if I don't get anywhere with them, what have you done and were you satisfied with the result? Thanks.
 

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Not satisfied with the brakes on our 2013 Pilot, and fully aware that the brake rotors on newer Hondas are prone to warping early because I had this same issue with a 2003 Acura TL. We bought the vehicle new and had to have the rotors resurfaced at 22K. Now, at 45K, the pulsing/shaking in the steering wheel has returned. Going to have a talk with the dealer to see what they will do, but if I don't get anywhere with them, what have you done and were you satisfied with the result? Thanks.
No such thing as warping. What you’re experiencing is pad deposit left in the rotor from the soft OE pad material. Now that we’ve got that out of the way.

The way I eliminated the brake fade and pulsation was by dumping the soft OE pads and going with ceramic pads. Depending on how worn the rotors are, you can resurface them, or just get new ones for the same cost. I went with AutoZone / Duralast painted hat rotors and their top of the line ceramic pads. There’s always a 20% off coupon and most stores have the product in stock. Plus there’s a 2 year warranty on the rotors and lifetime warranty on the pads. I never had issues with pulsation or fade again.
 

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Yes, such thing as warping. We already had these arguments here, and I will simply reiterate what I already wrote earlier: The lies about "no such thing as warping" are being perpetuated by the manufacturer-affiliated bots and trolls to help them avoid class action lawsuits and by those same ones afffiliated with the peddlers of aftermarket snake oils.

The simple proof of warping can be obtained by the method described in the factory service manual, i.e. installing a dial indicator on the strut and rotating the rotor to see the runout. I repeated this procedure described on the p. 19-13 of the Honda factory service manual numerous times on new and warped rotors and every time the root cause of the brake pedal pulsation was excessive runout of the rotor AKA warpage. The standards for runout can be found on p. 2-16.

I used Honda pads with no issues for 70k miles on my pilot and they still have tons of material while braking has been perfect all along. My rotors have warped slightly over time and 20k miles ago I replaced the OEM rotors with the cheapest rotors from Rock Auto (Centric or Bendix, can't remember the name, but on the cheapest side of Daily Driver category) and had no warpage issue re-occur yet. In the mean time my Nissan Quest would have warped rotors already.

To sum it up: I have physical evidence that pulsation starts once the rotor runout exceeds the standard. Amen.
 

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So Raybestos has no idea what they’re talking about and should come to you for technical advice?

Uneven rotor wear, or run out, is NOT warping.


Edit: there’s tons of evidence that says other wise, just google-fu

 

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<------------- Watching the conversation with a bag of caramel popcorn......
 
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Just trying to educate the OP on the term warp. Take a red hot pan and dunk it in cold water, it may warp. A forged piece of solid steel in a thousand degree cast will not warp. That’s all I’m saying...and now I’m hungry for caramel popcorn!
 

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Just trying to educate the OP on the term warp. Take a red hot pan and dunk it in cold water, it may warp. A forged piece of solid steel in a thousand degree cast will not warp. That’s all I’m saying...and now I’m hungry for caramel popcorn!
ohhh it's a big fresh bag too! .......
 

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I do not care who thinks what. Cast iron is prone to warpage from repeated heating and cooling. This is the reality of metallurgy and I'll leave it at that. Raybestos, Centric, Bendix, Brembo, Delphi, Magna and whoever else manufactures parts in this world are interested parties and their best interest is to deny blame.

If you do not believe me, buy a dial indicator and a high quality mount for it, such as Noga and mark your rotor as you are indicating runout on one side. When you will indicate the oppisite side, you'll find that the hills correspond to valleys. If you are arguing with me having never measured runout on a rotor, what kind of experts does it make you? There you go.
 

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Yep, many threads on the garbage OEM brakes. Replace with any quality kit and you'll be fine.
 

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I went with the power stop brake kit with slotted rotors in the front never had any issues since
 

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Discussion Starter #11
No such thing as warping. What you’re experiencing is pad deposit left in the rotor from the soft OE pad material. Now that we’ve got that out of the way.

The way I eliminated the brake fade and pulsation was by dumping the soft OE pads and going with ceramic pads. Depending on how worn the rotors are, you can resurface them, or just get new ones for the same cost. I went with AutoZone / Duralast painted hat rotors and their top of the line ceramic pads. There’s always a 20% off coupon and most stores have the product in stock. Plus there’s a 2 year warranty on the rotors and lifetime warranty on the pads. I never had issues with pulsation or fade again.
What is the best method of removing pad deposit?
 

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Discussion Starter #12
I apologize if I've started a $hit show here; I'm not the most educated on the warped rotor/pad deposit debate.
 

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I apologize if I've started a $hit show here; I'm not the most educated on the warped rotor/pad deposit debate.

nah your fine Welcome to the forums btw ! ... Just replace the rotors and pads with a good quality kit like mclasser suggested and you will be fine . I went to a power stop brake kit on my 15 and never had these issues since...

Happy Motoring
 

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My family has owned many Hondas over the years... every single one experienced this. I always replace with a quality rotor and pad kit (usually Centric's mid to high grade stuff) and have never had issues.

Whether it's "warping" or "deposits" there was a guy on DriveAccord who developed a "rebedding" procedure that he would do whenever the shaking would start again and he could get it to go away for a period of time. I never cared to limp what I considered the subpar OEM parts along that far so I never did it and cannot verify the results personally.
 

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What is the best method of removing pad deposit?
You can have them turned to eliminate the run out. Or just buy new front rotors. The cost is negligible. Make sure the lugs are torqued properly because over-tightened lugs is the most common cause of brake pulsation and rotor run out.


And I'm not going to argue the "warp vs. run-out". There's tons of evidence and explanations by automotive and braking engineers out there as to the "warp" effect. I can't find the original Stop Tech article, but I had saved it to my PC:

I'll quote it again in case anyone cares :

The "Warped" Brake Disc and Other Myths of the Braking System
by Carroll Smith


Myth # 1 – BRAKE JUDDER AND VIBRATION IS CAUSED BY DISCS THAT HAVE BEEN WARPED FROM EXESSIVE HEAT.
The term "warped brake disc" has been in common use in motor racing for decades. When a driver reports a vibration under hard braking, inexperienced crews, after checking for (and not finding) cracks often attribute the vibration to "warped discs". They then measure the disc thickness in various places, find significant variation and the diagnosis is cast in stone.

When disc brakes for high performance cars arrived on the scene we began to hear of "warped brake discs" on road going cars, with the same analyses and diagnoses. Typically, the discs are resurfaced to cure the problem and, equally typically, after a relatively short time the roughness or vibration comes back. Brake roughness has caused a significant number of cars to be bought back by their manufacturers under the "lemon laws". This has been going on for decades now - and, like most things that we have cast in stone, the diagnoses are wrong.

With one qualifier, presuming that the hub and wheel flange are flat and in good condition and that the wheel bolts or hat mounting hardware is in good condition, installed correctly and tightened uniformly and in the correct order to the recommended torque specification, in more than 40 years of professional racing, including the Shelby/Ford GT 40s – one of the most intense brake development program in history - I have never seen a warped brake disc. I have seen lots of cracked discs, (FIGURE 1) discs that had turned into shallow cones at operating temperature because they were mounted rigidly to their attachment bells or top hats, (FIGURE 2) a few where the friction surface had collapsed in the area between straight radial interior vanes, (FIGURE 3) and an untold number of discs with pad material unevenly deposited on the friction surfaces - sometimes visible and more often not. (FIGURE 4)

In fact every case of "warped brake disc" that I have investigated, whether on a racing car or a street car, has turned out to be friction pad material transferred unevenly to the surface of the disc. This uneven deposition results in thickness variation (TV) or run-out due to hot spotting that occurred at elevated temperatures.

In order to understand what is happening here, we will briefly investigate the nature of the stopping power of the disc brake system.
 

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Hey guys! I won’t say yours are not warp. But here’s my take:
I thought I had some how messed up my brakes last week.
You see, I started to have a grinding noise from the front brakes when I was braking a low speed on red lights and stops. The thing is I live in a rural quiet place of northern Quebec and I barely use my brakes. So I fought that my 2017 EX (36000 Km)brakes should still be brand new. That led me to think that they might just be loaded up with road dust or something since they rarely work out. I went on the road and made 2 full emergency stop from 100kmh .
It smelled bad, so I thought I had it good now and I proceeded home.
The next braking nearing my street got me freaking out... pulsating, vibrating sensation under moderate braking at the stop.. WTF! I was so mad at my self.. I had just warped my rotor...

That evening, I made some research online, underworked brake, overheated brakes, Honda shi**y brakes, etc.. and to the conclusion that there was now something wrong with my brakes from the beginning that day.. during my energy stops, I was able to bottom out the pedal without getting abs to trigger or wheel locking out!

So I went back on the road... made 6 emergency stops! My brake were smiling and smelled like welding shops! No fading! That’s crazy! I then let them cool while coasting at 80kmh on our deserted road here and when I was satisfied with their apparent lower temps, I gave them an other go at it.. holy cow! 3/4 into the pedal travel everything in the car that had not moved to the front yet flew toward the front of the car, my eyewear were pulling in my ears and the ABS did it’s best at keeping the wheel from locking... that. Was AN EMERCY STOPPPP!

And best of all? No more vibration under braking....

Moral of the story: in my case, my brakes had not been used heavily enough to stay clean in the last two years....
Hope this help some of you!


Envoyé de mon iPhone en utilisant Tapatalk
 

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On the first early symptom of "warped rotors & pulsing pedal" symptoms, I did check the rotor thickness and runout with a dial indicator. No runout. But yes on uneven pad deposits. A few full-effort stops from freeway speeds solved the immediate pedal pulsing by scrubbing the deposits off. After a few of those episodes I decided to adjust the stopping procedure slightly. A little easier on the pedal means anticipating a little more, then letting up almost completely on the pedal as it comes to a complete stop. It turns out that the material deposition happens when you have you foot hard on the pedal with car stopped, hot pads and rotors. Eliminating that hard clamp while stopped eliminated the symptoms.

That said, a fellow weekend HPDE participant has switched to Porterfield R4S on his Pilot. These are a pretty aggressive pad for street use, but are targeted at towards the aggressive-street/mild track use market. But they do make them for our cars. He reports a significant improvement in initial bite as well as overall total braking force improvement. Meanwhile, I use Performance Friction pads in the other car for HPDE sessions. If PF made pads for the Pilot I'd be all over them, they are that much better than even the original traxtar pads that came on the car. Anyway, brake pad selection is a lot like finding the best oil -- lots of opinions. I drive the Pilot like an old white-haired guy, with well over 20 MPG average consumption so you know there's a lot of feather-foot driving in the Pilot, both pedals. Anyway, I may go with the Porterfield pads when replacement time comes along. At 43k they are still plenty thick, north of 10mm in front, so it may be a while before I can report my own results.
 

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Which type of dial indicator have you used?
This

or this?


Performance pads work well at higher temperature, which can be only achieved by more aggressive braking. I tried performance pads in the past and swapped them out for OEM after feeling no improvement whatsoever and increased stopping distance instead.
 

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I used the first piston-style indicator, on a magnetic mount that lets me position the indicator to look at axial runout one side at a time. I supplement that with a micrometer to take thickness readings at 8 places around the rotors. If there's noticeable axial runout detected, I add a pencil to the mix and make a mark on the highest spots as the rotor face passes. Then the other side of the same rotor and compare the patterns. If the rotor faces are warped or otherwise distorted, this kind of measurement will pick it up.

The lever-style micrometer is quite handy, but offers less accurate measurement as the displacement on the lever grows. Not significant really , but since I have both I choose the piston type.

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The PF pads on the other car do very well even when cold, comparable with factory pads on that car. I've fallen into the "race pads must be better" trap, where I had to drag a foot on the brake pedal for the first half a mile of driving on cool mornings to make sure I had enough brakes to stop down at the driveway gate. Very Exciting on really cold mornings. I've never driven the Porterfield pads, but hear good things from the weekend track guys. I may try and get a test drive in the buddy's Pilot to get some first-hand experience. So long as they don't leave a serious deposit on the disk while clamped at a stop, they should be better that the factory pads. The factory pads are wimpy considering the size of the rotors, tire diameter and vehicle weight.

I have about 43k on the Pilot now as I type, and the pads are still way short of wear that deserves their replacement. I'm not in the habit of spending $150+ on new pads that I don't need right away. The factory pads are fine with the modified pedal technique, at least as far as the pedal pulsing is concerned. I would like some better initial bite though.
 
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