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Discussion Starter #1
Well, I figured I'd get things started since I figure a bunch of folks might be trying to understand the difference between the Pilot and its "big brother" the Acura MDX. I've shamelessly taken them from a great series of posts by wmquan over on acuramdx.org. Perhaps our generous host can help w/fixing the table formatting w/all the blanks @ the top. I can't figure that part out :8:
 

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Discussion Starter #2
Summary of Pilot v MDX Differences

<table border="1" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="5"> <tr bgcolor="#CCCCCC"><td> </td><td><b>2003 Pilot EX-L</b></td><td><b>2002 MDX Base</b></td></tr><tr><td>Pricing (including destination)</td><td>$30,980</td><td>$35,200</td></tr><tr bgcolor="#CCCCCC"><td><b>Powertrain / Performance</b></td><td><b>2003 Pilot EX-L</b></td><td><b>2002 MDX Base</b></td></tr> <tr><td>Horsepower</td><td>[email protected] rpm</td><td>[email protected] rpm</td></tr><tr><td>Torque</td><td>242 lbs-ft @ 4500rpm</td><td>245 lbs-ft @ 3000-5000rpm<br>95+ percent of peak torque @ 2000 to 5500 rpm</td></tr> <tr><td>Mileage</td><td>17/22</td><td>17/23</td> </tr><tr><td>Fuel Octane</td><td>Regular</td><td>Premium</td></tr> <tr><td>Fuel Tank Capacity, gallons</td><td>19.2</td><td>19.2</td></tr><tr><td>Emissions</td><td>LEV/ULEV</t d><td>ULEV</td></tr><tr><td>First Tune-Up, Miles</td><td>105,000</td><td>100,000</td></tr><tr><td>Transmission Shifter</td><td>Steering wheel mounted</td><td>Gated, console-mounted</td></tr><tr><td>Acceleration, 0-60mph (fastest observed time)</td><td>8.1 seconds (MT, C&D)</td><td>7.6 seconds (2001 model - MW)</td></tr><tr><td>Braking</td> <td><u>70</u>-0 205' (C&D)</td><td><u>60</u>-0 132' (2001 model - MW)</td></tr><tr><td>Skidpad</td><td>0.73g (C&D)</td><td>0.74g (2001 model - C&D)</td></tr><tr><td>Suspension Tuning, Observed</td><td>"Somewhat softer ... more body roll" (C&D)</td><td> </td></tr><tr bgcolor="#CCCCCC"><td><b>Exterior Features</b></td><td><b>2003 Pilot EX-L</b></td><td><b>2002 MDX Base</b></td></tr><tr><td>Styling</td><td>Sheetmetal unique to Pilot</td> <td>Sheetmetal unique to MDX</b></td></tr><tr><td>Tires & Wheels</td><td>16" Goodyear Integrity's? P235/70 R16, alloy wheels</td><td>17" Goodyear Integrity's P235/65 R17, alloy wheels</td></tr> <tr><td>Fog/Driving Lamps</td><td>Accessory</td><td>Standard, Integrated</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Heated outside mirrors</td> <td>N/A</td> <td>Standard</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Moonroof</td> <td>N/A</td> <td>Standard; Tilt-up</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Roof Rails</td> <td>Standard (crossbars are accessory)</td> <td>Accessory (fixed rack)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Body Side Moldings</td> <td>Standard</td> <td>Accessory</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Rear Spoiler</td> <td>Standard ("Rear Roofline Spoiler")</td> <td>Accessory ("Tailgate Deflector")</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Front Mud Flaps</td> <td>Accessory?</td> <td>Standard</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Available Color Combinations, Exterior/Interior</td> <td>Black Pearl/Gray<BR>White/Fern<BR>Silver/Gray<BR>Redrock/Gray<BR>Evergreen/Saddle<BR>H avasu Blue/Gray<BR>Sandstone/Saddle (Aug)<BR>Sage Brush/Fern (Aug) </td> <td>Black Pearl/Ebony<BR>Black Pearl/Saddle<BR>Taffeta White/Saddle<BR>Silver Metallic/Ebony<br>Redrock/Saddle<br>Havasu Blue/Ebony<br>Mesa Beige/Saddle </td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#CCCCCC"> <td><b>Exterior Dimensions</b></td> <td><b>2003 Pilot EX-L</b></td> <td><b>2002 MDX Base</b></td> </tr> <tr> <td>Length</td> <td>188.0"</td> <td>188.5"</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Wheelbase</td> <td>106.3"</td> <td>106.3</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Width</td> <td>77.3"</td> <td>77"</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Track Front</td> <td>66.3"</td> <td>66.3"</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Track Rear</td> <td>66.5"</td> <td>66.5"</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Height</td> <td>71.7"</td> <td>68.7" (71.3" if roof rack added)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Weight</td> <td>4,439 lbs</td> <td>4,374 lbs</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Weight Distribution Ratio</td> <td>57%/43%</td> <td>58%/42%</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Ground Clearance</td> <td>8.0"</td> <td>8.0"</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Steering Wheel Turns, Lock-to-Lock</td> <td>3.22</td> <td>3.22</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Turning Circle Diameter</td> <td>38.0</td> <td>38.9</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Towing Capacity (requires coolers)</td> <td>3,500 lbs, 4,500 for boats; premium gas recommended for towing > 3,500 lbs</td> <td>3,500 lbs, 4,500 for boats</td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#CCCCCC"> <td><b>Interior Features</b></td> <td><b>2003 Pilot EX-L</b></td> <td><b>2002 MDX Base</b></td> </tr> <tr> <td>Driver's Seat Adjustments</td> <td>8-way power with lumbar support</td> <td>8-way power with lumbar support</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Passenger's Seat Adjustments</td> <td>4-way manual</td> <td>4-way manual</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Heated Front Seats</td> <td>N/A</td> <td>Standard</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Automatic Climate Control</td> <td>Standard; 2nd row HVAC subsystem</td> <td>Standard; 2nd row HVAC subsystem</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Interior Trim</td> <td>"Metallic" plastic</td> <td>Plastic "Wood"</td> </tr> <tr> <td>One-touch-down Driver's Window</td> <td>Standard</td> <td>Standard</td> </tr> <tr> <td>One-touch-up Driver's Window</td> <td>Standard</td> <td>N/A</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Electrochromatic (auto-dimming) rear view mirror</td> <td>Accessory</td> <td>Standard</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Center Console</td> <td>Standard, with Cellular Phone Cradle</td> <td>Standard</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Beverage Holders</td> <td>9</td> <td>10</td> </tr> <tr> <td>12-Volt Accessory Outlets</td> <td>4 (Front, 2nd row, cargo area</td> <td>3</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1st Row Rear Seatback Pockets</td> <td>Standard, upper & lower, mesh</td> <td>Standard, lower</td> </tr> <tr> <td>2nd Row Fold-Down Activity Tray</td> <td>Standard</td> <td>N/A</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Cargo Net</td> <td>Standard</td> <td>Accessory</td> </tr> <!-- --> <tr bgcolor="#CCCCCC"> <td><b>Passenger & Cargo Capacity</b></td> <td><b>2003 Pilot EX-L</b></td> <td><b>2002 MDX Base</b></td> </tr> <tr> <td>Maximum Passengers</td> <td>8</td> <td>7</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Third Row Seat</td> <td>Split 60-40, 3 headrests/belts</td> <td>Split 50-50, 2 headrests/belts</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Passenger Volume</td> <td>170.7 cubic ft</td> <td>161.5 cubic ft</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1st Row Headroom</td> <td>41.9"</td> <td>38.7"</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1st Row Legroom</td> <td>41.4"</td> <td>41.5"</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1st Row Shoulder Room</td> <td>61.6"</td> <td>61.2"</td> </tr> <tr> <td>1st Row Hip Room</td> <td>57.5"</td> <td>56.9"</td> </tr> <tr> <td>2nd Row Headroom</td> <td>40.9"</td> <td>39.0"</td> </tr> <tr> <td>2nd Row Legroom</td> <td>37.4"</td> <td>37.8"</td> </tr> <tr> <td>2nd Row Shoulder Room</td> <td>61.4"</td> <td>61.1"</td> </tr> <tr> <td>2nd Row Hip Room</td> <td>56.6"</td> <td>56.3"</td> </tr> <tr> <td>3rd Row Headroom</td> <td>38.9"</td> <td>36.3"</td> </tr> <tr> <td>3rd Row Legroom</td> <td>30.2"</td> <td>29.3"</td> </tr> <tr> <td>3rd Row Shoulder Room</td> <td>58.8"</td> <td>58.6"</td> </tr> <tr> <td>3rd Row Hip Room</td> <td>49.0"</td> <td>48.5"</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Cargo Capacity, 2nd & 3rd rows folded, cubic feet</td> <td>90.3</td> <td>82.0</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Cargo Volume, 2nd row in use, 3rd row folded, cubic feet</td> <td>48.7</td> <td>49.6</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Cargo Volume, 2nd & 3rd row in use, cubic feet</td> <td>16.3</td> <td>???</td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#CCCCCC"> <td><b>Audio & Electronics</b></td> <td><b>2003 Pilot EX-L</b></td> <td><b>2002 MDX Base</b></td> </tr> <tr> <td>Audio System</td> <td>AM/FM/CD/Cassette Auto System with 7 Speakers (including subwoofer), 155 watts</td> <td>AM/FM/CD/Cassette Auto System with 7 Speakers (including subwoofer)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Radio Antenna</td> <td>Integrated Side Window</td> <td>Dorsal</td> </tr> <tr> <td>CD Changer</td> <td>Accessory - In-dash, 6 CD</td> <td>Accessory - underseat, 6 CD</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Trip Computer</td> <td>N/A</td> <td>Standard</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Compass</td> <td>Accessory</td> <td>Standard</td> </tr> <tr> <td>DVD Entertainment System</td> <td>Available</td> <td>N/A</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Rear Collision Safety</td> <td>Rear view camera & backup sensor are an accessories</td> <td>N/A</td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#CCCCCC"> <td><b>Safety</b></td> <td><b>2003 Pilot EX-L</b></td> <td><b>2002 MDX Base</b></td> </tr> <tr> <td>Expected IIHS Offset Frontal Crash Test Score</td> <td>Good</td> <td>Good</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Actual IIHS Crash Test Score</td> <td>To be tested</td> <td>Good + Best Pick (2nd place among all tested SUV's)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Expected NHTSA Full Frontal Crash Test Scores</td> <td>5-stars</td> <td>5-stars</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Actual NHTSA Full Frontal Crash Test Scores</td> <td>N/A</td> <td>N/A</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Expected NHTSA Side Impact Crash Test Scores</td> <td>5-stars</td> <td>5-stars</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Actual NHTSA Side Impact Crash Test Scores</td> <td>N/A</td> <td>5-stars front, 5-stars rear</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Actual NHTSA Rollover Resistance Rating</td> <td>N/A</td> <td>4-stars</td> </tr> <tr bgcolor="#CCCCCC"> <td><b>Support</b></td> <td><b>2003 Pilot EX-L</b></td> <td><b>2002 MDX Base</b></td> </tr> <tr> <td>Warranty</td> <td>3 years, 36,000 miles</td> <td>4 years, 50,000 miles</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Extended Warranties</td> <td>Honda, to 7 years, 100,000 miles</td> <td>Acura, to 7 years, 100,000 miles</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Number of Dealerships</td> <td>??? (lots)</td> <td>??? (significantly less)</td> </tr> <tr> <td>Service Perks with <u>most</u> dealerships</td> <td> </td> <td>Free vacuum & wash<br>Loaners</td> </tr> </table>
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Autojournalist Comments on Differences

This message contains quotes from various auto reviews on the differences between the vehicle. Of course, these are the subjective opinions of the reviewers.

Car & Driver 6/02 Issue

http://caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/roadtests/2002/june/200206_roadtest_pilot.xml

"However, with smooth ride as a key dynamic priority, the Pilot's suspension tuning is a little softer than that of its more expensive cousin ... the Pilot exhibits more body roll in hard cornering than the sportier MDX ...

"The Acura can almost run down a BMW X5 3.0i on the road, whereas the Pilot feels noticeably porkier. Plus, the MDX's tangier styling makes the bland Pilot look like the byproduct of a Senate subcommittee on SUVs. If you have the extra money, spend it with my blessing."

Edmunds First Drive 5/23/02

http://www.edmunds.com/reviews/roadtests/firstdrive/62442/article.html

"The MDX makes slightly more torque at a lower rpm thanks to a more advanced intake manifold ...

"Suspension tuning is softer than the MDX. As a result, the Pilot isn't as entertaining to drive as its Acura cousin ..."

Autoworld 6/02 Issue

"The MDX is boutique stylish. The Pilot looks like it came off the dress-for-less at Target."

AutoWeek 5/15/02

http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?port_code=autoweek&cat_code=reviews&loc_code=index&content_code=07179870

"The Pilot is basically a softer- sprung version of the Acura MDX, with a more rounded exterior and increased storage space inside. ...

"It’s actually a lot closer to the MDX than you might think ... gets the same powerful 240- horsepower, 242-lb-ft 3.5-liter V6 as the MDX ...

"Pilot’s interior is aimed at being more family-friendly than the style-conscious MDX."

The Car Connection 5/20/02

http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?article=4925&sid=181&n=157

"There’s not a single panel of sheetmetal, nor a single pane of glass, shared with the up-market Acura model ...

"The interior is completely different, as well. For one thing, Honda’s version is an eight- seater, one more than the MDX. And while the automaker might not like to make the comparison, the Pilot is designed, in many ways, to function as a stylish substitute for the far less hip Honda Odyssey minivan. Under the skin, there are other changes in line with Pilot’s primary purpose as a people carrier. The ride is a bit softer, the emphasis on comfort, rather than performance.

"On road, the Pilot has a softer and more comfortable ride than MDX, reflecting the intended market."
 

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Worm,

Very good information!!! :D
 

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Good numbers, but the MDX is no faster than the PILOT. Read the Pilot reviews in C&D and MT June issues with the 8.1 & 8.19 numbers, but they had similar numbers for the MDX when MDX was introduced.

Consumer Reports which tests acceleration from an idle (no power-braking) recorded 8.0 sec 0-60 for MDX. which is consistent with MW 7.7 sec.

If CR can do 8.0, then C&D and MT are sandbagging numbers for MDX. They are doing the same for the Pilot.

Bottom line; MDX & Pilot have similar acceleration numbers - probably the 7.7 numbers from MW.
 

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Hey Worm, one thing I didn't see mentioned in William's comparo (maybe I missed it) was any mention of whether the rear windows roll all the way down. I think I read somewhere that unlike the 'X, the Pilot's rear windows actually roll all the way down (like the CR-V's :) ). I know it's a minor thing, but it sort of bugged me (and GG Jr.) back in my 'X days.
 

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GatorGreg said:
Hey Worm, one thing I didn't see mentioned in William's comparo (maybe I missed it) was any mention of whether the rear windows roll all the way down. I think I read somewhere that unlike the 'X, the Pilot's rear windows actually roll all the way down (like the CR-V's :) ). I know it's a minor thing, but it sort of bugged me (and GG Jr.) back in my 'X days.
If you can get me a link to the article that says it (as confirmation), I'll be happy to add it to the table (at least my copy of it, on acuramdx.org).

Moonkat: As far as 0-60 goes, yeah, I feel funny posting the lowest times but I think I want to see what Motor Week registers. I think when I see better comparative times I can lay them down. FWIW, the 2001 MDX that MW tested was about a hundred pounds lighter than the Pilot, though that obviously won't make a huge difference.

General:

Say, I tried posting my comparison table on Edmunds, but the software wouldn't accept my formatting. To me, it has to be in the form of a table to be useful (not text down the page).

So my only alternative was to post a link to the acuramdx.org forum. I then got a nastygram saying I had violated their "don't promote another website" policy and that the post was deleted! I can understand them being protective of their userbase, but 1) their software won't take the table; 2) the info was useful for potential Pilot buyers; and 3) sure it mentions a system that might compete for the users, but, frankly, I don't think it's a solicitation.
 

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wmquan said:
If you can get me a link to the article that says it (as confirmation), I'll be happy to add it to the table (at least my copy of it, on acuramdx.org).
It's in THIS review by Canadian Driver:

I noted that the rear side windows go all the way down.
 

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In many forums there is ongoing chat about the MDX vs. the Pilot. One isn't necessarily better than the other, it's just that now we have more of a choice - it's like saying what's better, chocolate or vanilla ice cream.

Since they are made on the same assembly plant and share the same drivetrain, the overall quality/reliability and basic performance will be similar. Variations from vehicle to vehicle and in the test tracks probably account for the small differences in 0-60 times.

To me, the main differences when comparing an EX-L to a MDX premium are....

MDX has more fashionable style, Pilot is more utilitarian
MDX Is a bit more luxurious inside, the Pilot isn't too bad, either.
MDX may corner better, Pilot should ride a little better.
MDX is roomy, the Pilot is slightly roomier.
MDX offers extra features (sunroof, 17" wheels, etc.), Pilot is less money.
MDX options seem more geared to "professional" couples, Pilot seems more geared to families with children.

So one is not "better" than the other, it's just different. Like most of you, I’ve been curious what changes Honda made when designing the Pilot that distinguishes it from the MDX. My neighbor has an MDX. When my Pilot arrives, I’ll certainly compare it, inside, outside, top, and bottom, to see how they differ (I bet the underbody is identical, so the trailer hitch should be the same).

I was ready to buy an MDX Touring, but when the Pilot came out, I switched to an EX-L RES. I have no regrets, but I would also have no regrets if I had bought the MDX! Either way, you are getting a great vehicle. :29:

Bob
 

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I agree totally. Its just that one would suit better than the other in certain circumstances.

I was considering MDX as well but after I heard about the Pilot, decided to wait and have a deposit on a Pilot-EX-L


bob92 said:
In many forums there is ongoing chat about the MDX vs. the Pilot. One isn't necessarily better than the other, it's just that now we have more of a choice - it's like saying what's better, chocolate or vanilla ice cream.

Since they are made on the same assembly plant and share the same drivetrain, the overall quality/reliability and basic performance will be similar. Variations from vehicle to vehicle and in the test tracks probably account for the small differences in 0-60 times.

To me, the main differences when comparing an EX-L to a MDX premium are....

MDX has more fashionable style, Pilot is more utilitarian
MDX Is a bit more luxurious inside, the Pilot isn't too bad, either.
MDX may corner better, Pilot should ride a little better.
MDX is roomy, the Pilot is slightly roomier.
MDX offers extra features (sunroof, 17" wheels, etc.), Pilot is less money.
MDX options seem more geared to "professional" couples, Pilot seems more geared to families with children.

So one is not "better" than the other, it's just different. Like most of you, I’ve been curious what changes Honda made when designing the Pilot that distinguishes it from the MDX. My neighbor has an MDX. When my Pilot arrives, I’ll certainly compare it, inside, outside, top, and bottom, to see how they differ (I bet the underbody is identical, so the trailer hitch should be the same).

I was ready to buy an MDX Touring, but when the Pilot came out, I switched to an EX-L RES. I have no regrets, but I would also have no regrets if I had bought the MDX! Either way, you are getting a great vehicle. :29:

Bob
 

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I agree. I think it's going to come down to a buyer's priorities.

Only thing I'm wondering about is the over-MSRP pricing of some Honda dealerships. If (and it's a big if) one can get a base MDX at MSRP, but the Pilot is, say, $2k over MSRP, the decision may get a bit thornier.
 

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If the Pilot is thousands above MSRP and the MDX is selling at MSRP, then the choice to get the MDX gets that much stronger. My decision was based on me being able to get either vehicle at MSRP, which means the Touring MDX would cost $5300 more than the EX-L RES. While there are Honda dealers who are certainly selling way over MSRP, there are still Acura dealers that are doing the same for the MDX.

There are at least 3 Honda dealers in NM that are asking straight MSRP. The one Acura dealer in this state is also selling at MSRP, so my decision was easier.

Bob
 

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bob92 said:
If the Pilot is thousands above MSRP and the MDX is selling at MSRP, then the choice to get the MDX gets that much stronger. My decision was based on me being able to get either vehicle at MSRP, which means the Touring MDX would cost $5300 more than the EX-L RES. While there are Honda dealers who are certainly selling way over MSRP, there are still Acura dealers that are doing the same for the MDX.

There are at least 3 Honda dealers in NM that are asking straight MSRP. The one Acura dealer in this state is also selling at MSRP, so my decision was easier.

Bob
Yep, your decision is certainly easier. Though a base MDX is closer in equipment to the EX-L RES than the MDX Touring you mentioned (neither MDX version has the RES, obviously). Thus the price difference between the EX-L RES and the base MDX is about $2,700, not $5,300.

I think the bigger problem is for a would-be EX-L buyer who may be facing a, say, $2,000 markup. The base MDX is $4,220+tax more than the EX-L. If one can find the MDX at base, then the MDX is "only" $2,220+tax more. Then the buyer has to figure out if the differences listed here are worth the $2,220+tax.

Either way, it's a win-win situation!
 

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$4000 mark up

Just went to a dealer today. They're asking for $4K mark up.
For an EX-L MSRP plus $4K, it's only ~$200 less than MDX base
MSRP. I was pretty much in shock and asking them the question:
"why do I want buy a HONDA Pilot when I can get a ACURA MDX
for $200 more"?

Guess what, they couldn't answer the question ;)
 

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:2:
We just got our Pilot on Thursday and it's alot more than expected! My dad's got an MD-X and the Pilot's suspension is definately a little softer but it corners just as well! It is a lot less choppy over the bumps and is extremely quiet.
As for styling, the Pilot interior is quity comfortable and when the woodgrain kits get to the dealer, the interior should be as nice as the MD-X. The green gauges are really easy on the eyes at night
Even without a Sunroof or chrome door handles and trim the Pilot is way more bang for the buck!
 

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Pilot v MDX

I just drove the Pilot (EX-L with res) and MDX (base) today, and found the ride in the Pilot to personally be better. Both seats feel the same. Both the dealerships were selling at straight MSRS with no forced options so it made the decision easier to go to the PIlot. Unfortunately, they said the Sage would not come in til October as it has not been released yet, so we will have to wait....
 

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Width between wheel wells

Can we add a stat to that chart? In the way of ulitility- the Pilot will accommodate 4x sheet goods flat on the floor between the wheel wells. The MDX will not. It's about an inch shy. This combined with a Hitch Hand (hitch mounted accessory that supports long material) makes for pickup truck level of utility. (almost)
This was a consideration for me since I'm always doing something to the house...:25:
 

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Re: Width between wheel wells

MDXlite said:
Can we add a stat to that chart? In the way of ulitility- the Pilot will accommodate 4x sheet goods flat on the floor between the wheel wells. The MDX will not. It's about an inch shy. This combined with a Hitch Hand (hitch mounted accessory that supports long material) makes for pickup truck level of utility. (almost)
This was a consideration for me since I'm always doing something to the house...:25:
Thanks. I've updated the chart on its main home, on the sister site to this one:

http://www.acuramdx.org/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=5727

I can't update the one here because I didn't post it.
 

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$4000 mark up

Yhlin,

If you are looking to buy a Pilot, several of us silicon valley folks have bought or are buying from Merced Honda. Its a couple hour drive, but they sell all their pilots at MSRP with no forced options and no BS...I'm ignoring the local dealers (including Steven Creek which is just down the street) since they are $3-$5K over...hope they rot on the lot for them.

John Perry is the salesman I'm going through (getting a Sagebrush)...
 
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