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It's really close to passenger, and the use of the anti-seize on the stud is a regular discussion. I opened it a decade or more ago with Porsche, as owners were suffering when aluminum lug nuts were welding to aluminum wheels particularly when a rattle gun was used and/or there was any significant overtightening. We proposed a non-graphite lubricant for the friction faces. Porsche came back and said that a thin film of anti-seize is OK on threads only; the friction faces need to stay dry. For steel-to-steel interfaces, copper anti-seize is the weapon of choice among metal-based products, so that's what the 4Runner and Pilot get.

As far as using ATF or engine oil on clean threads vs. the anti-seize, the effect on final tension is identical. For critical bolts, there's a derate schedule for lubricated vs. dry. Varies based on thread size and pitch. For fine-thread wheel studs, there's a bigger issue with corroded dry threads. Regardless, I use the copper stuff, wipe it off with a paper towel so minimum remains in the stud threads, and tighten to normal spec. I'm interested in the copper layer, not the oil carrier.

This is straying far from the original question about using a torque wrench to loosen lug nuts.
Interesting twist on the OP thread as this discussion on using a bit of lube on studs for some Piloteers in the rust belt have a lot of corrosion to deal with.
 

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Sorry, I do not know how to edit.
To edit, click on the three little dots (the pros call it a kebab menu, really) at the top right of your post and select "Edit." When you're done, click "Save" below.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
They dig up the last work performed. Then you have to try to prove you were not the last one to service it.
Paperwork trails. That is why I made every footnote on my paperwork.
I guess the rule of law is changing since I learned how it worked. Back when I understood it, they had to prove you broke the law, you didn't have to prove you didn't.
 

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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
^^^ That's the one (or two...). One goes in the car, the other in the toolbox. Huge investment, huge results. Leave the tension at zero between uses.

Working on the 4Runner today, I reminded myself that the studs get copper anti-seize, the "culottes" (the cups where the nut seats in the wheel) are dry on the German cars. The 4Runner has washers that stay dry. Lots of different theories about what's dry and what gets a little rust-avoidance.
i think I'll try that. So far I haven't run into any rust on or under this Florida Pilot, but I don't want to discover any on a stuck lug nut on a dark roadside some night.
BTW, I tested the Craftsman in both directions. It moved the first lug nut at 84 ft-lbs and when I flipped the ratchet to tighten it moved the nut to exactly the same position when it clicked. I did the same test on the other lug nuts with similar results, so looks like no harm done loosening lugs nuts with this torque wrench (at least nuts tightened to spec) and calibration didn't move any.
 

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i think I'll try that. So far I haven't run into any rust on or under this Florida Pilot, but I don't want to discover any on a stuck lug nut on a dark roadside some night.
BTW, I tested the Craftsman in both directions. It moved the first lug nut at 84 ft-lbs and when I flipped the ratchet to tighten it moved the nut to exactly the same position when it clicked. I did the same test on the other lug nuts with similar results, so looks like no harm done loosening lugs nuts with this torque wrench (at least nuts tightened to spec) and calibration didn't move any.
Maybe a typo... The correct wheel nut torque is 94 lbs/ft, per my owner's manual.
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
Maybe a typo... The correct wheel nut torque is 94 lbs/ft, per my owner's manual.
Not exactly a typo although thanks for the escape route. I foolishly ASSumed that the Discount Tire dude who I saw using a torque wrench on the lug nuts after winding them up with a rattle gun with a torque limiter extension knew what he was doing. All the lug nuts broke between 82-84 ft-lbs so at least he was consistently wrong. sigh.

Or maybe I need to hang some weights on this new torque wrench despite its included certified test sheet. Certified by whom I don't know.
 

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My collection of interesting tools includes some digital torque wrenches and torque angle tools. The 1/2" Harbor Freight wrench, the $10 one that rides in the Pilot, is within a couple lbs/ft of the expensive digital version when compared "head to head" at 100 lbs/ft. That's well within the spec accuracy of the HF tool, and infinitely more accurate than the too-common "rattle gun until the nut no longer moves, that ain't goin' anywhere" torque you get from the "tech" at the tire store.

Remember, this discussion started with spouses not being able to get lug nuts loose with the factory tool. The handle on the factory lug wrench is 13" long, while the torque wrench handle is a whopping 17" long. Using the torque wrench to correctly tighten the lug nuts offers the advantage of potentially being able to remove them with the factory tool. The user needs to be able to pull on the handle end with sufficient force to "break away" the friction bond between the nut and the wheel. In a perfect world that would be the same 94 lbs used to tighten the nut, but perfect seldom happens in real life. Will your spouse be able to apply that kind of force to a foot-long wrench handle? The lug nuts on my car aren't really long enough and the hex end of the Honda wrench not deep enough to make standing or jumping on the wrench handle safe for mrs dr bob. I see slip-fall-broken hip in the nightmare vision. The slightly longer handle on the torque wrench reduces the force necessary on the end of the handle by about 25%, but still requires a minimum of about 65 lbs of lifting force best case. Increase the handle length to the 25" breaker bar, and force required drops by half at the end of the handle vs. the factory tool, if you decide to go that way.

Last thought is that I'm not at all sure I want mrs dr bob even messing with jacking the car up or changing a tire on the roadside. She carries a couple roadside-assistance plan cards with her, and a cellphone. One card from AAA, another from our car insurance carrier. Plus a couple valid credit cards in case the duty is greater than just installing the spare. Way safer, cleaner, easier to let a pro do the dirty work while she sits in the comfort of the cabin. It's why we have the roadside service agreements, so why not use them?
 

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Agreed. Only exceptions would be if out of cellphone range, or on days roadside assistance is backed up for hours. While I was teaching her how to put on her winter tires, my daughter just grabbed an unused lower hollow parasol pole (it's longer than any of the above options) and put that over the factory tool as a cheater pipe, which made light work of it. I wouldna thunk of that, so she ended up teaching me something. Maybe just carry one of those around in the rear storage area.

142886
 

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Discussion Starter · #31 ·
My collection of interesting tools includes some digital torque wrenches and torque angle tools. The 1/2" Harbor Freight wrench, the $10 one that rides in the Pilot, is within a couple lbs/ft of the expensive digital version when compared "head to head" at 100 lbs/ft. That's well within the spec accuracy of the HF tool, and infinitely more accurate than the too-common "rattle gun until the nut no longer moves, that ain't goin' anywhere" torque you get from the "tech" at the tire store.

Remember, this discussion started with spouses not being able to get lug nuts loose with the factory tool. The handle on the factory lug wrench is 13" long, while the torque wrench handle is a whopping 17" long. Using the torque wrench to correctly tighten the lug nuts offers the advantage of potentially being able to remove them with the factory tool. The user needs to be able to pull on the handle end with sufficient force to "break away" the friction bond between the nut and the wheel. In a perfect world that would be the same 94 lbs used to tighten the nut, but perfect seldom happens in real life. Will your spouse be able to apply that kind of force to a foot-long wrench handle? The lug nuts on my car aren't really long enough and the hex end of the Honda wrench not deep enough to make standing or jumping on the wrench handle safe for mrs dr bob. I see slip-fall-broken hip in the nightmare vision. The slightly longer handle on the torque wrench reduces the force necessary on the end of the handle by about 25%, but still requires a minimum of about 65 lbs of lifting force best case. Increase the handle length to the 25" breaker bar, and force required drops by half at the end of the handle vs. the factory tool, if you decide to go that way.

Last thought is that I'm not at all sure I want mrs dr bob even messing with jacking the car up or changing a tire on the roadside. She carries a couple roadside-assistance plan cards with her, and a cellphone. One card from AAA, another from our car insurance carrier. Plus a couple valid credit cards in case the duty is greater than just installing the spare. Way safer, cleaner, easier to let a pro do the dirty work while she sits in the comfort of the cabin. It's why we have the roadside service agreements, so why not use them?
My wife has all the roadside cards/services but when something with the car stops working, makes a strange noise, or acts differently than normal, I told her not to call them .... call me. If it's a problem that strands her and the car, if I'm close enough to get to her soon, I drive to where she is and give her my car. I don't want her by herself stranded on the roadside waiting who knows how long for a AAA truck or a bad guy posing as a good samaritan. She knows how to change a flat tire and I put one of those sliding/expandable breaker bars in her car toolkit along with a can of Flatfix should she be out of cell phone range.
 

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Same here, actually. Call me first.


 

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This makes it SOOOOOOO Easy for the wife to break those lug nuts loose and change a flat tire.
 

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I always get the first call. Same protocol as stated -- go rescue her and manage the issue. Worst case is that she waits for the AAA truck.

I will say that in the decades of being the support crew, she's never needed a flat-tire rescue or any other rescue that couldn't be managed with phone coaching. It's been similar decades since I needed an on-the road tire change too. Being better able to keep good tires on the cars has played a part, as has the quality of tires overall. I think the last 'flat' I had was on a rental car thanks to a screw, and I solved it with a string patch kit from a tractor supply store in a gas station parking lot. In truth, I put a LOT more miles on rental cars than my own in those same decades. I tried the rental company's roadside service, and it turned out to be a lot faster and easier to just fix it. I got my hands dirty, but they cleaned up OK.
 

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I was in Lowe's the other day to get a ladder stabilizer to give me more confidence on our shaky ladder putting Christmas lights on high gables when I happened to see a 1/2" Craftsman ratcheting reversible 30" click torque wrench in a nice case on sale for $45!

It comes with a certification of accuracy with actual test results for that particular wrench from 25-250 ft-lbs.

Since this thing is so inexpensive, I'm thinking of tossing it in the underfloor storage bin at the hack of the Pilot as a lug nut wrench, not just for properly tightening but also loosening stubborn lug nuts given that the long 30" handle should make easy work of things for an old weakling like me. Once when I had a flat out in the boonies, I couldn't get two of the lug nuts off with the truck's lug nut wrench, even jumping on the handle with all my 200 pounds of weight.

See any reason using a torque wrench would not be a good idea, the loosening part, if I set the torque value high enough to break all the lug nuts free before the torque wrench clicks? Yes, I realize a 30" half inch breaker bar costs less than $45 and steel pipe cheater bars even less or a $19 Harbor Freight torque wrench with shorter handle ... but I'm just asking anyway ... you know, the ole, justify buying something you didn't really need because the price was too good to pass up. :cool:
Always lift upward to break a bolt loose. You can apply more force than your body weight that way. If you're pushing downward than you're limiting your force to just your body weight.
 

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Always lift upward to break a bolt loose. You can apply more force than your body weight that way. If you're pushing downward than you're limiting your force to just your body weight.
Opposite applies to us old fat guys though, right? ;)

There are a few lessons we learn along the way, including -always- pulling on a wrench rather than pushing. Where there's a forced exception to that rule, no closed fingers around the wrench. "Pushing" especially when there's body weight involved and a rapid breakaway, leaves you with bruised fingers and hands if you are lucky, a face full of tire or worse if not so much. I can fall with the best of them but prying myself upright again seems to take longer and hurt more if I'm not careful.

I may have to go look at that 30" Craftsman torque wrench as a ride-along replacement.
 
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Always use the correct tool for the job. That was the number one lesson I learned as a pre-apprentice from the seasoned veteran mechanics in the bays on either side of me. Torque wrenches are used to tighten, and only to spec. If you must use an impact gun, only to loosen. Torque sticks are no part of a real mechanic’s shop. A 24” breaker bar is used when you are dealing with something stubborn that shouldn’t be heated to loosen. The instant you lose tactile feedback is when you are most likely to do damage. So leave the cheater pipe for the amateurs. And never lubricate wheel studs. Never. Just put it together clean like it was meant to be.
 

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So leave the cheater pipe for the amateurs.
Or for a daughter breaking lug nuts torqued by a gorilla with an air gun determined they wouldn't accidentally loosen on his watch (or liability insurance policy).
 

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Discussion Starter · #39 ·
Opposite applies to us old fat guys though, right? ;)

There are a few lessons we learn along the way, including -always- pulling on a wrench rather than pushing. Where there's a forced exception to that rule, no closed fingers around the wrench. "Pushing" especially when there's body weight involved and a rapid breakaway, leaves you with bruised fingers and hands if you are lucky, a face full of tire or worse if not so much. I can fall with the best of them but prying myself upright again seems to take longer and hurt more if I'm not careful.

I may have to go look at that 30" Craftsman torque wrench as a ride-along replacement.
One place where I find "pushing" is better is when breaking the rear differential fill plug loose while under the car. I'm able to get enough leverage with both elbows and forearms on the ground and pushing up rather than pulling down. Because the leverage is created pushing against the ground, the extent of travel after the break doesn't come near hitting knuckles on anything.

That method didn't work the first time I tried loosening the factory tightened nut so I had to haul out all my extensions using a pipe extension on the wrench out from underneath the car.
 

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I was in Lowe's the other day to get a ladder stabilizer to give me more confidence on our shaky ladder putting Christmas lights on high gables when I happened to see a 1/2" Craftsman ratcheting reversible 30" click torque wrench in a nice case on sale for $45!

It comes with a certification of accuracy with actual test results for that particular wrench from 25-250 ft-lbs.

Since this thing is so inexpensive, I'm thinking of tossing it in the underfloor storage bin at the hack of the Pilot as a lug nut wrench, not just for properly tightening but also loosening stubborn lug nuts given that the long 30" handle should make easy work of things for an old weakling like me. Once when I had a flat out in the boonies, I couldn't get two of the lug nuts off with the truck's lug nut wrench, even jumping on the handle with all my 200 pounds of weight.

See any reason using a torque wrench would not be a good idea, the loosening part, if I set the torque value high enough to break all the lug nuts free before the torque wrench clicks? Yes, I realize a 30" half inch breaker bar costs less than $45 and steel pipe cheater bars even less or a $19 Harbor Freight torque wrench with shorter handle ... but I'm just asking anyway ... you know, the ole, justify buying something you didn't really need because the price was too good to pass up. :cool:
I wouldn't. Torque wrenches are not made for loosening. Get a breaker bar or spend a few bucks and get a cordless impact. I have the Kobalt 1/2" from Lowes and it works great and isn't all that much.
 
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