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read full article at : http://money.cnn.com/2003/07/08/pf/autos/bc.autos.durability/index.htm?cnn=yes


J.D. Power long-term quality survey
Problems per 100 vehicles

Manufacturer Score
Porsche 193
Toyota 196
Honda 215
Nissan 258
BMW 262
General Motors 264
Subaru 266
Average 273
Ford 287
DaimlerChrysler 311
Mitsubishi 339
Hyundai 342
Isuzu 368
Volkswagen 378
Suzuki 403
Daewoo 421
Kia 509
 

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Wow, there's a marked difference in numbers between Toyota and Honda, even though Honda's position is right after Toyota's. Also, note the "Top 10 Brands" chart in the middle of the page. Honda's 9th and Buick's 3rd!!! Even Cadillac and Lincoln are ahead of Honda. I know those two are "luxury" brands, but still it does not bode well with me.

I wonder if if I bought my Pilot just as the the automobile quality landscape started changing with Honda starting to fall behind and the other companies starting to pull ahead.

Is the Pilot still the best car I've ever owned? YES! Is it also the most expensive car I've ever owned? YES! Even though I don't regret having bought the Pilot, I'm still a bit apprehensive about how well the car will hold up after most of the warranty expires, despite adhering to scheduled service religiously.

One thing I'm confused about those charts is, what the difference is between the first one (J.D. Power long-term quality survey) and the second one (Top 10 Brands)? Are Acura and Lexus, for eg., accounted for together with Honda and Toyota, respectively in the first chart and the second chart distinguishes between all of them? Sorry, if this is obvious. Most of you know by now I'm not that quick :D
 

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RipRocK said:
One thing I'm confused about those charts is, what the difference is between the first one (J.D. Power long-term quality survey) and the second one (Top 10 Brands)? Are Acura and Lexus, for eg., accounted for together with Honda and Toyota, respectively in the first chart and the second chart distinguishes between all of them? Sorry, if this is obvious. Most of you know by now I'm not that quick :D
I think you're right. In the top chart, it's the company that's being assessed, so Honda = Honda brand + Acura brand. In the second chart, the individual brands are being ranked. At least that's how I read it.
 

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shutrbug said:

I think you're right. In the top chart, it's the company that's being assessed, so Honda = Honda brand + Acura brand. In the second chart, the individual brands are being ranked. At least that's how I read it.
You're correct. This also points out some obvious questions about the numbers in the second chart. Some of the brands listed are high end, meaning the average price of a vehicle in that brand's line is higher and generally they sell fewer models. You would expect them to do better. Also, it seems fair to compare like-brands. That is, comparing Honda and Toyota makes sense. Comparing Toyota and Porsche does not.

I'd like to know the average cost of the problems per brand, or even a specific categorization of the types of problems.

These numbers that JD Powers publishes are only a start. However, considering the other brands in the rankings, I think Honda faired well. I'd just like to know more.
 

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How do they survey?

I recently got a envelop from JD power which contain a set of survey paper and one shinning brand new dollar bill.
Anyway, I took the dollar bill but didn't do the survey untill 2 days ago when I was bored to bone. I started the survey but soon I realized that's even more boring. I end up speedy through the survey and mailed it back. You will be surprised about the one dollar bill.
My point was: Is that all JD power do? Let consumer fill out surveies (without monitor) and add them up? I don't think that's very good survey at all. At least my part will be pretty much useless. I gave out most of my rating on pilot was 8.
 

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Buick

"Top 10 Brands" chart in the middle of the page. Honda's 9th and Buick's 3rd!!! Even Cadillac and Lincoln are ahead of Honda. I know those two are "luxury" brands, but still it does not bode well with me.


You know...I have long wondered about Buick ratings. I hate to say it for fear of offending some members. But based on my father-in-law and his son's cars....they are all "perfect" no matter how bad they are. All of them drip 6 inches of oil in my driveway every time they come over. If I drive them...they have many obvious problems. But...they just put their blinders on and say "My Buick is perfect". This is over 15 years and 10 Buicks.

"This IS your Grandpa's Oldsmobile and it can do no wrong. "

Bottom line....the Buick driver is just not the Critic that a Vette or BMW or HONDA driver is.

I ignore Buick as a reporting anomoly. Of course I am unscientific, biased, and all that crap, but that is my 2 cents.
 

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I hear ya mikmax1. My grandfather was the same way. A new Buick every 2 or 3 years, no matter how bad the previous one was.

I think, in general, people would be hesitant to admit that they paid 15, 20, 25, 30, 35, 40 grand for a car that turned out to be not so great. that would mean admitting that they made a mistake in purchasing the vehicle.

I purchased the Pilot to replace a Jeep Grand Cherokee. I'll admit that the build quality and long-term reliability of that vehicle is suspect at best. Yet I meet plenty of JGC owners who say it's a great car. I ask them about this recall, or that known problem, and they just say "yeah, ok, sure, but it's still a great SUV". Sure it is.
 

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Re: How do they survey?

timchen said:
I recently got a envelop from JD power which contain a set of survey paper and one shinning brand new dollar bill.
Anyway, I took the dollar bill but didn't do the survey untill 2 days ago when I was bored to bone. I started the survey but soon I realized that's even more boring. I end up speedy through the survey and mailed it back. You will be surprised about the one dollar bill.
My point was: Is that all JD power do? Let consumer fill out surveies (without monitor) and add them up? I don't think that's very good survey at all. At least my part will be pretty much useless. I gave out most of my rating on pilot was 8.
But you can't write off all the surveys by Buick owners. My father is one picky customer. He also happened to own Hondas and Toyotas in the past (currently has a Nissan, along with the Buick).

I think my Dad is one his fourth Buick and has been very pleased with all of them.

You might say the same about dedicated Honda owners? Some people on this forum are still very happy with their Pilot, even though they've had some problems. Look how some members defend the Pilot no matter what trouble an owner might be experiencing.

Brand loyalty may play a part in the surveys, but people like myself would tell them exactly "the way it is!"
 

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Survey

Jungle Jim is correct in my view.

However the survey substantiates those that have had more than their share of problems with the pilot.

It also suggests that not all manufacturers have gone downhill.
 

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Whats scary is Mercury is right behind Honda.
 

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US Brands Move up in Quality?

Here are some words from Car and Driver. Maybe that's why Buick gets better survey. Well, it's about time for them to do something.


U.S. Brands Move Up in Quality, Study Says

Although Japanese-branded vehicles continue to dominate in terms of long-term vehicle quality, the Europeans have lost their edge over the U.S. domestic-branded vehicles, according to the J.D. Power and Associates 2003 Vehicle Dependability Study.

Power said in a statement that the 2003 study, which measures problems reported by original owners of 2000 model-year vehicles at three years of ownership, finds that although there is near parity between U.S. domestics and Europeans in terms of initial quality, substantial quality gaps appear between the domestics and the Europeans in long-term durability. On average, models by domestic automakers outpace the Europeans by 49 problems per 100 (PP100) vehicles at three years of ownership.

"Conventional wisdom said that dependability was the property of the Japanese and Europeans," said Joe Ivers, partner and executive director of quality/customer satisfaction at J.D. Power and Associates. "While that's still true for automakers like Toyota and Honda, it's no longer the case for many of the Europeans. Porsche, Jaguar, Saab and BMW perform well above the industry average in dependability, but many other European brands are bought based on a reputation for long-term quality and fall far short of even the average. This is in stark contrast to the results of the first VDS, conducted in 1990, when Mercedes-Benz led the industry."

Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc. boasts nine models with top segment rankings, followed by Ford Motor Company and General Motors with three each, and American Honda and Porsche Cars North America with one each.

Lexus is the top-ranked nameplate for the ninth consecutive year. Porsche Cars North America leads the corporate ranking, while Toyota Motor Sales leads among the full-range vehicle manufacturers.

General Motors is the only domestic manufacturer to rank above the industry average in the corporate rankings, with 12 models finishing in the top three of the segment rankings, second only to Toyota Motor Sales with 13.

Other notable performances in the 2003 results include Subaru and GMC, which both performed considerably better when measured at three years in VDS than when they were measured at 90 days of ownership. At the other end of the spectrum is Mercedes-Benz, which experiences the largest quality gap between initial quality and long-term quality measurements. Also deteriorating more rapidly than the average vehicle are Audi and Volvo.

Some problems that occur much more frequently as vehicles age include excessive brake wear, air conditioning system issues, wind noise and the replacement of components not called for under the normal maintenance schedule. New problems that arise as vehicles age include issues with shocks and struts; faded, cracked or worn materials; worn or broken moldings; cracked and peeling paint; and various fluid leaks.

Long-term quality measures have a big consumer impact. Among new-vehicle buyers, 52 percent indicate that long-term durability is among their most important factors in choosing a vehicle. Further, among used-vehicle buyers, 42 percent report buying a used vehicle instead of a new vehicle because they felt that the quality of the used vehicle is as good as a new one. This is particularly true among luxury used-vehicle buyers.

"With the proliferation of long-term warranties being offered on new vehicles and the increasing popularity of manufacturer-sponsored used-vehicle certification programs, long-term quality issues are critical to manufacturers and their bottom lines," said Ivers. "Manufacturers must align themselves with consumer expectations for durability. Long-term quality issues have a substantial impact on customer retention, even among 'got to have' models that seem impervious to quality issues at their introductions."

The 2003 Vehicle Dependability Study is based on responses from more than 55,000 original owners of 2000 model-year cars and light trucks. The study covers 147 specific problem symptoms grouped into nine major vehicle systems. For the first time, the study reviews models at three years of ownership instead of the historical four- to five-year period in order to better support manufacturer product improvement efforts in next-generation replacement models.
 

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Re: How do they survey?

timchen said:
I recently got a envelop from JD power which contain a set of survey paper and one shinning brand new dollar bill.
Anyway, I took the dollar bill but didn't do the survey untill 2 days ago when I was bored to bone. I started the survey but soon I realized that's even more boring. I end up speedy through the survey and mailed it back. You will be surprised about the one dollar bill.
My point was: Is that all JD power do? Let consumer fill out surveies (without monitor) and add them up? I don't think that's very good survey at all. At least my part will be pretty much useless. I gave out most of my rating on pilot was 8.
The crispy dollar bill is always sent out with a JD Powers survey.

The survey itself may seem strange but auto manufacturers take them very seriously. There are a lot of customers who are influenced by the results.
 

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J.D. Power

J.D. Powers bills are paid by the manufacturers whose products they survey.

IMO, this marketing information company creates so many surveys to satisfy their customers that pretty much everyone sees some successes at one time or another. Just happens to be Buicks time ;)
Go to http://www.jdpower.com/cc/auto/releases/index.asp?catid=1 and under manufacturer click on Honda. You will see a nice list of surveys where they have done well.

And Consumer Reports still ranks the Pilot as the top midsize SUV out of 13 in its class.

I use these publications as a tool to make my buying decision - not to make the decision for me.
 

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2004 J.D. Power and Associates Initial Quality Study

Honda Ranks as the Highest Non-Luxury Brand in J.D. Power and Associates Initial Quality Study

Torrance, Calif. 04/29/2004 -- Honda vehicles achieved the highest ratings of any non-luxury brand in the J.D. Power and Associates 2004 Initial Quality Study (IQS), a survey of new car buyers' perceptions of quality problems such as quality of workmanship, drivability, human factors in engineering and safety-related problems. Overall, Honda ranked fourth among all brands. Topping the list were luxury marques Lexus, Cadillac and Jaguar.

Contributing to Honda's success, the Honda Odyssey ranked highest in the Compact Van segment and the Element ranked number one in the Entry SUV segment. Honda models that placed among the top three in each individual segment include the Civic (Compact Car in a tie), S2000 (Premium Sports Car), CR-V (Entry SUV) and Pilot (Midsize SUV). American Honda Motor Co., Inc., tied for second place overall in the corporate rankings, which measures the IQS performance of both the Honda and Acura automobile divisions. (For Acura, the TSX ranked highest in the Entry-Luxury segment.)

"Honda's position in the J.D. Power and Associates Initial Quality Study indicates that quality is not reserved exclusively for luxury buyers," said Tom Elliott, executive vice president of American Honda. "Our vehicle quality competes favorably among cars in luxury segments with considerably higher MSRP's."
 

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Having owned Hondas since 1981 ('82 Accord), it will always be my top choice when it comes to buying any new car for the following reasons:

- 89 Civic, sold after 260,000 miles
- 4 Hondas over 100k (2 of them over 200k) without any major repair
- Honda consistently ranking in the top from JD Power
 
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