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Discussion Starter #1
2011 Pilot. 99,000 miles. Recently installed VMTuner.

My father with a 2012 Odyssey and 120k just threw a code, Dealer says needs new rings.


Got me to thinking - how do I know how much damage my engine has? My 8 year extended warranty per the lawsuit is up in April 2019. Should I ditch this car after that? Or is this not that big of a deal?

I change the oil per the MM, which ends up being every 8000 miles give or take. Use Mobil 1 EP, at least since we bought it with 50k miles. We consume around 1/2 quart in between oil changes (8k miles) before the VCMTuner.


My question really is - is there any way I can evaluate how much damage is done to this engine, or premature wear? Will a simple compression test show it? Will a dealer do the ring repair based on their own testing, or do they need the codes thrown before they will consider it?
 

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I am in your same exact shoes. Has your car ever fouled a plug to the point you lost the use of that cylinder? Have ever you changed the plugs?

Can someone chime in and offer advice on whether a leak down test would help us evaluate the amount of ring wear. I am fairly sure that is what that test is designed to do, but I am not certain.


My lengthy story is here, feel free to skip reading this, but I thought it might help a little to include it - I have a 2011 am at 127k and my 8 year mark expires in April. The cyl #1 plug fouled on my at about 90k (I had changed the plugs at 60k per the Honda schedule). At the time I did not know about the ECM suit, so I simply threw in a new plug and went about my business. When the car was at ~115k, #1 fouled again. At this point I learned about the ECM recall/lawsuit. I took the car to Honda and asked them if my car was a candidate for the ring replacement. They said it is a two step process and performed step 1 (replaced the #1-4 plugs and reflashed the ECM with the new program for cylinder deactivation). They said they only do step 2 (replace the rings) IF the car fouls plugs again. Fortunately (or more like unfortunately) it hasn't happened again yet. So now I am left thinking that I have 115k miles on my engine where excessive wear was occurring, but now it is band-aided enough to not foul a plug or throw a code and my motor will now not last as long as I had hoped and Honda will not remedy the situation if/WHEN it occurs again in a short while AND I am quickly running out of time (sorry about the run on).

I pulled the #1 plug two days ago and it is crusted in white, which in my experience is a sign of oil leakage into the cylinder. I also pulled #6 as a comparison (and since that cylinder doesn't deactivate) and it was much less crusted, but still slightly more then what I would call 'normal'. But since I haven't thrown a code yet, I Honda won't do anything. Super frustrating.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
Mine has never fouled a plug or thrown a code.

Still has the factory spark plugs in there. My spark plug schedule says this is part of the B14 code schedule - which is 105k.
 

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I posted this in the new member question area and have gotten no replies:

I know there are dozens of threads on oil consumption for the 2nd gen pilots, and that this was due to software issues for the vcm and potentially the oil ring issue. My question is if there is a year that honda made a shift in the oil rings used in the motor to compensate for the actual issue with the rings?

I am in the market for a new to me car, and while I have no issue using the vcmuzzler or dealing with a software update or changing out plugs from the prior owner, I am scarred of buying one of these 2nd gen pilots and having an internal engine issue like the rings. Once the classaction suit came up, I would think honda would make an alternation in the vehicles to avoid further issues, but I've never heard of confirmation of this, nor of what year they made have started this kind of change. All I've read is that if the ecu reprogramming didn't work a lot of owners had their shortblocks either reringed or replaced.


So the theme is similar is trying to find out just how bad/prevelant this issue is and what the best steps are for these cars when they get up in miles.
 

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Chiming in here, as someone who has done countless piston ring jobs i can say for certain that mechanically these engines are fine, the weak link is the piston rings that cause misfires, nothing else .
 

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Chiming in here, as someone who has done countless piston ring jobs i can say for certain that mechanically these engines are fine, the weak link is the piston rings that cause misfires, nothing else .
So what is the frequency of this issue? 10%, 20% 50% of them?

Is there a year of the second gen that they did not have this ring issue?

Asking because I am debating buying a used pilot. Since seems mostly reported in the 100k-140k range this something I am looking out for as a buyer of a used pilot. Obviously this issue may be something a seller will avoid telling a buyer...
 

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My plugs, after swapping them today.

Is this worth taking to the dealer and trying to get a re-ring job over? Will they even consider my old plugs as evidence for the warranty work?

They won't do anything unless your car throws a CEL related to a misfire in cylinders 1-4. BUT, I feel it is worth reaching out to your local Honda service dept and talking to someone about the condition of your plugs. If nothing else, just develop a rapport with them. They may have some good advice for you, like just throw the old plugs back in until one fails and then you can get the ball rolling on step 1 of the process.
 

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Are you a honda tech?

Yes, i have been with Honda for 13+ years


They won't do anything unless your car throws a CEL related to a misfire in cylinders 1-4. BUT, I feel it is worth reaching out to your local Honda service dept and talking to someone about the condition of your plugs. If nothing else, just develop a rapport with them. They may have some good advice for you, like just throw the old plugs back in until one fails and then you can get the ball rolling on step 1 of the process.
This is solid advice, Honda has issued a TSB ( Technical Service Bulletin ) regarding fouled spark plugs, i just recently finished a 2011 Odyssey that had DTC P0301 # 1 engine misfire and they used to have us just replace spark plugs 1-4, then update the PCM software to now go straight into replacing the piston rings.


For some reason only piston rings 1-3 are almost always affected, and we hardly see #4 go bad , i think we have only seen 2 since the recall/warranty extension has been issued that #4 misfire is recorded



I snapped some pics of the piston ring job i just did today


Curious?


Take a look



Cannot embed so click here
mannuel vega | Flickr
 

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So what is the frequency of this issue? 10%, 20% 50% of them?

Is there a year of the second gen that they did not have this ring issue?

Asking because I am debating buying a used pilot. Since seems mostly reported in the 100k-140k range this something I am looking out for as a buyer of a used pilot. Obviously this issue may be something a seller will avoid telling a buyer...
probably not even 10%, think of the millions of pilots that they had built only to find that xxx% of those millions have piston ring issues.


And to be honest Honda actually had stepped up the warranty AND the goodwill warranty on these engines.

The warranty is 8 years unlimited mileage from original purchase date regardless of original owner.

So if you buy a 2012, with 256,000 miles and it has either a 1-4 misfire and the spark plugs are fouled, guess what ?


They are paying the dealership to install new rings free of charge. And it's normally a $4,000-$5,000 repair bill that is on them ( Honda ) And not only to they replace the rings on the affected cylinder, they pay for replacing of the rings on the other 2,3 and 4 cylinders that may be also affected.



They have literally upped their warranty extension game, i don't know of any other car maker that would pay for extra repairs that weren't even affected .

PLUS to the dealership it's free money , IMO it's a win/win for the customer AND the dealership .



The only thing that IS required is that the engine fall under the affected cylinder ( it has to code on it's own for either cylinders 1,2,3 or 4 ) and it can't have a rebuilt title or salvaged .

They won't pay for new piston rings if it has a rebuilt or salvaged title. Other than that if it falls under the warranty criteria , regardless of miles, they will pay for new rings and in some cases they will even pay for a rental car ( obviously if you meet the rental facility's criteria to drive a rental )


I hope that answers some questions
 

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I hope that answers some questions

Wow. Amave17, this is invaluable info. Thanks a ton for the pics. It is great to see what the pistons look like on the cylinders that have prematurely worn rings.

Let me ask you this, (I hope this isn't thread jacking...I think this info could help a number of owners)... I had step 1 performed around 105k miles (approx) and am at 129k now, BUT my 8 year mark is coming up in April '19 (or around there). So does the warranty period for the repairs expire at the 8 year mark even though I had Step 1 done already? Maybe I need to clarify my question. If in August of 2019, CEL P0301 pops us AND I am clearly past the 8 year since delivery mark, would Honda still repair my motor SINCE I already had Step 1 performed and showed that the issue was prevalent beforehand? Or is 8 years the drop-dead date no matter the situation.
 

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Yes, i have been with Honda for 13+ years




This is solid advice, Honda has issued a TSB ( Technical Service Bulletin ) regarding fouled spark plugs, i just recently finished a 2011 Odyssey that had DTC P0301 # 1 engine misfire and they used to have us just replace spark plugs 1-4, then update the PCM software to now go straight into replacing the piston rings.


For some reason only piston rings 1-3 are almost always affected, and we hardly see #4 go bad , i think we have only seen 2 since the recall/warranty extension has been issued that #4 misfire is recorded



I snapped some pics of the piston ring job i just did today


Curious?


Take a look



Cannot embed so click here
mannuel vega | Flickr

Are you ever finding the ring gaps lined up?

Are the rings that you are installing a different part number (like an upgrade) than the original?
 

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Question for Amave17:


The TSB specifies that certain VINs are covered, and others aren't. Do you know how they go about determining which VINs are covered and which are not? The dealer that serviced my Pilot prior to my purchasing it says that mine is not covered. It has no problems at 52K miles, but I'm wondering how they can be so sure that this problem won't pop up later (especially since it is a 2009 & outside of extended warranty now).


Thanks!
 

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Are you ever finding the ring gaps lined up?

Are the rings that you are installing a different part number (like an upgrade) than the original?
Yes sometimes the ring gaps are lined up, and yes the new rings are updated parts



Question for Amave17:


The TSB specifies that certain VINs are covered, and others aren't. Do you know how they go about determining which VINs are covered and which are not? The dealer that serviced my Pilot prior to my purchasing it says that mine is not covered. It has no problems at 52K miles, but I'm wondering how they can be so sure that this problem won't pop up later (especially since it is a 2009 & outside of extended warranty now).


Thanks!

From what i know all 2009-2013 Pilots have the warranty extension, the only stipulation for it being covered by the extension is it has to follow the criteria;

the check engine light HAS to be on ( because when we hook up our scan tool it records the VIN # and the miles and that data gets uploaded to Honda directly ) , it has to have either 1-4 misfires ( if it has 5 or 6 misfires it isn't covered ) and you have to have the PCM software updated once before.

In other words if you have a 2009-2011 you have to have a record ( with any dealership ) that indicates 1-3 misfire has happened, and step #1 is to change the spark plugs 1-4 and the PCM software updated.
In most cases the PCM software update fixes the problem, then if the misfire returns at a later date, they replace the piston rings either 1-3 or 1-4 if there is a misfire on cylinder #4


2012 & 2013 automatically get new piston rings


I hope this clears anything up.


Just some FYI we have seen cases that the Pilot/Odyssey/V6 Accord owner had the MIL light scanned & cleared by an independent shop and the claim gets denied because we didn't record the snap shot data. It only gets denied until the MIL light comes back


So if you have your MIL light scanned and you see any 1-4 cylinder misfire DO NOT CLEAR IT.


Instead call your local Honda dealer and let them know your MIL light is on.
 

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Wow. Amave17, this is invaluable info. Thanks a ton for the pics. It is great to see what the pistons look like on the cylinders that have prematurely worn rings.

Let me ask you this, (I hope this isn't thread jacking...I think this info could help a number of owners)... I had step 1 performed around 105k miles (approx) and am at 129k now, BUT my 8 year mark is coming up in April '19 (or around there). So does the warranty period for the repairs expire at the 8 year mark even though I had Step 1 done already? Maybe I need to clarify my question. If in August of 2019, CEL P0301 pops us AND I am clearly past the 8 year since delivery mark, would Honda still repair my motor SINCE I already had Step 1 performed and showed that the issue was prevalent beforehand? Or is 8 years the drop-dead date no matter the situation.

If you get the P0301 and you are out of the warranty extension, then have the service advisor inform the service manager to contact the DPSM ( which is the district parts and service manager ) and they take all out of warranty repairs on a case by case basis, and if they don't pay for the full 100% repair in most cases they will help out .

Depending on the problem and the cost they will either pay for a % of the total repair bill or help with the cost of labor ( on these engines the only thing that really needs to be replaced are the actual piston rings, you can reuse most of the other gaskets if you needed to ) so usually it isn't a door being slammed in your face when asking for assistance



They usually deny ANY repairs if abuse or neglect is obvious , of if there is little to no maintenance records supplied .



This is why we always tell our customers to service the vehicle at the dealership because we keep records and can go back in the history and look at actual intervals and once we see actual maintenance records of service performed when it is recommended by the manufacturer, we cannot deny to repair our vehicles. Honda AFAIK stands by their products
 

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Interesting that they are now skipping the step 1 PCM update and going right to the step 2 rebuild. I got the eligible misfire CEL back in May and all they did was the PCM update (and charge me for new plugs).
 
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