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Honda Pilot VS Subaru Ascent

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We are strongly considering a Pilot EX and are also considering the Highlander (and possibly even the Odyssey w/o the 9 speed transmission). I have recently started hearing more about the new Subaru Ascent with all the news coming out of the LA International Auto Show. Does anyone have thoughts on how this vehicle will compare with the Pilot - pros and cons? So far, the initial information sounds positive - reliable AWD system, solid safety features and good reliability. Thanks!
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Blackjoy said:
The Pilot can send 100% of the torque to either wheel in the rear.
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Sorta. Honda has some pretty talented marketeers just like Subaru. This is only true under a limited set of conditions. 3rd-gen Pilot can send most of the total engine torque to the outside rear wheel during aggressive cornering. This is because of the "overdriven" rear differential. But under most conditions, the maximum torque split front-rear will be less than 100% to the rear, because Pilot doesn't have a center differential with independent drive shafts to the front and rear. There is no way for it to "shut down" the front diff. Along with the open front diff, this does limit Pilot's off-road capabilities. It's just not designed to be a rock crawler. Nor is it designed to be a rally car. A rally car needs to have the capability of sending torque to all wheels all the time. The iVTM4/SH-AWD system is more of an "on-demand" system. That's not really a bad thing; it's what allows it to be efficient, and it's very good in the conditions for which it is designed. ( I'll probably get flamed for this heresy, but that's OK, it will liven up the discussion ).

Overdriven torque vectoring is a relatively rare capability and certainly has benefits for on-road handling dynamics. I think the control software is tuned for less aggressive response in Pilot's "iVTM4" relative to MDX's "SH-AWD", probably because of the higher center of gravity and softer suspension of Pilot. But I can feel it working in sweeping turns ( as long as I stay on the throttle ). Some manufacturers are implementing brake-based torque vectoring that brakes the inside rear wheel during cornering, supposedly giving a similar benefit to true overdriven mechanical torque vectoring. I think Subaru is one of them. The new "Sport-Hybrid SH-AWD" system in Acura NSX, RLX, and MDX Sport-Hybrid is a very interesting system with independent electric motors for each side at the rear. It can even transfer torque between rear wheels by running one motor as a generator to provide regenerative braking, and sending the juice to the other motor.

This is a frequent topic of discussion on the MDX sites. Here are some relatively brief and entertaining articles on the subject:

https://carthology.com/2015/11/20/this-vs-that-torque-vectoring-systems/

https://www.caranddriver.com/features/whats-the-diff-we-put-torque-vectoring-to-the-test-feature
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I've owned 6 Subarus, 8 counting those my sons owned with my name on the title. Great cars/SUVs in many respects, but there's one significant thing that made me switch, head gaskets. I never had trouble with mine, my last was a 2002 Forester that I traded last June with my truck for a 2007 Pilot. Due to a job change, I couldn't justify 2 vehicles but needed something large for truck like duties at time. The other factor was I hope to have this Honda for a long time before any significant repairs. I believe it extremely rare or unlikely for a Subaru to go 200k+ miles without needing the head gaskets replaced. Sure, the 2.4L in the Ascent is all new, but there have been head gasket failures with the 2010 and newer 2.5 engines, as well as overheating (maybe leading to the failure) and excessive oil consumption.

One theory for the gasket failures is the 'boxer' engine's design. When an inline or V engine isn't running, the oil flows down away from the heads. In the boxer engine, since the heads are on the sides there's always oil there, or partly there. That, over time could be a factor to premature wear. I'm no mechanic - but the theory makes sense to me. I realize my post may not be significant to someone buying a brand new vehicle, chances are it'll be traded in before a head gasket failure could be a factor. For the position I'm in now, I considered very long term reliability. The whole theory may not even be valid - there's reports of Subarus with 300k+ miles, the majority of them are 1990s or 80s models - not just due to the age, but the engine. While the 2.2L of that era was also a boxer engine, head gasket failures were very rare. Maybe because it was a 'closed deck' design. I know this is a Honda forum, I love my ten year old Honda Pilot with 135k miles.
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Bluensleepy said:
Just a little info. There are 12,378 Honda dealership and approximately 600 Subaru dealership in the US. I am spoiled since I have 10 Honda dealership in a 20 mile radius. So any recall or major service can be handled within reason. The Subaru dealership near me is small and so is there maintenance department. My question is would they be able to handle the additional load, if the Ascent sells like crazy? Current or former Subaru owners please chime in.

https://www.consumerreports.org/car...consumer-reports-car-reliability-survey-2017/
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That maybe true, but Honda usually does bull about it and will rarely if ever address their problems. It took them 2 years to address the 9 speed and still haven’t done anything 17 CRVs infotainment not working as well as the civic. I’m not a Honda hater but that’s what I usually hear on personal experience and on these forums, especially the CivicX forum.


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Stelcom66 said:
I've owned 6 Subarus, 8 counting those my sons owned with my name on the title. Great cars/SUVs in many respects, but there's one significant thing that made me switch, head gaskets. I never had trouble with mine, my last was a 2002 Forester that I traded last June with my truck for a 2007 Pilot. Due to a job change, I couldn't justify 2 vehicles but needed something large for truck like duties at time. The other factor was I hope to have this Honda for a long time before any significant repairs. I believe it extremely rare or unlikely for a Subaru to go 200k+ miles without needing the head gaskets replaced. Sure, the 2.4L in the Ascent is all new, but there have been head gasket failures with the 2010 and newer 2.5 engines, as well as overheating (maybe leading to the failure) and excessive oil consumption.



One theory for the gasket failures is the 'boxer' engine's design. When an inline or V engine isn't running, the oil flows down away from the heads. In the boxer engine, since the heads are on the sides there's always oil there, or partly there. That, over time could be a factor to premature wear. I'm no mechanic - but the theory makes sense to me. I realize my post may not be significant to someone buying a brand new vehicle, chances are it'll be traded in before a head gasket failure could be a factor. For the position I'm in now, I considered very long term reliability. The whole theory may not even be valid - there's reports of Subarus with 300k+ miles, the majority of them are 1990s or 80s models - not just due to the age, but the engine. While the 2.2L of that era was also a boxer engine, head gasket failures were very rare. Maybe because it was a 'closed deck' design. I know this is a Honda forum, I love my ten year old Honda Pilot with 135k miles.
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Every manufacturer has some sort of problem. Honda has their tranny problems, Toyota with their premature water pump replacements, Mazda with their rust .etc. I believe you have to replace it once and it’ll go 300k (might be wrong, someone told me that’s what they did to their Subie)


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I do admit the transmission in my Pilot isn't as smooth as other automatics I've driven. I just hope it's not cause for concern. I saw earlier in this thread the cargo capacity of the Ascent was only 72 cubic feet, was surprised it's that as the 3rd gen CRV was about the same. I think the Outback is also around 72.
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From the pics, I think low cargo volume measurement is because of relatively low roof height and high load floor toward the front. It looks like the 2nd-row seats don't fold down very flat. But these are just guesses.

My reptilian brain lost interest when a reviewer said "not enough passing power". :frown:
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Stelcom66 said:
I do admit the transmission in my Pilot isn't as smooth as other automatics I've driven. I just hope it's not cause for concern. I saw earlier in this thread the cargo capacity of the Ascent was only 72 cubic feet, was surprised it's that as the 3rd gen CRV was about the same. I think the Outback is also around 72.
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Sure, my wife's 4 speed automatic feels smoother, probably because comparatively, there's a lot less shifting. I haven't driven any other cards with 9 speed automatics that go 0-60 in 6.2 seconds as tested by Car and Driver. Personally, the transmission doesn't bother me, nor have I had any passengers say anything about it.
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cintocrunch
Love this thread, lots of good information brought up... the dealership location is an interesting one, we have one in my town but some areas don't have any nearby...

I read somewhere that the cargo volume measurements were probably done with the seat down or using one of the measurement systems not used as the marketed volume by most manufacturers... based on the pictures of the cargo are with the third row in use and the reviews (that some long legged 6 footers fit in the third row), I thought it looked pretty roomy... I guess as we get more reviews we will find out.

Solid point on the head gasket issue, but I would contest that most manufacturers have had issues with some of their engines... DI engines have generally been hard on valve deposits (literally), VCM and all of those competing systems have all had issues, etc. Personally I don't like the sound of boxer 4's, so I'd have to drive it to see if it's intrusive in this vehicle or not.
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I believe the cargo area can fit a 70 inch TV.


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Also I’m pretty sure that those head gasket problems are gone, like the early 2000 Honda tranny failures, with Toyota’s mid 2000 accelerator problem. In my opinion, these problems evenly match out the brands.


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i like the concept prototype better. this one just looks like a raised and bigger outback which i dont think looks appealing.
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If I remember correctly, one advantage of the Ascent is that Subaru gives you the choice of either captain or bench chairs for the second row at no additional cost. Not sure if it's just for the upper trims or not.

For the Pilot, you either get the Elite with captain chairs or the Touring with the bench chair. So if you wanted the bench chair you'd lose out on the blind spot monitoring and some other extras like LED headlights, etc.

At least Subaru (so far) gives you a choice of getting all the trimmings with the choice of second row seats.
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ChillyWind said:
If I remember correctly, one advantage of the Ascent is that Subaru gives you the choice of either captain or bench chairs for the second row at no additional cost. Not sure if it's just for the upper trims or not.

For the Pilot, you either get the Elite with captain chairs or the Touring with the bench chair. So if you wanted the bench chair you'd lose out on the blind spot monitoring and some other extras like LED headlights, etc.

At least Subaru (so far) gives you a choice of getting all the trimmings with the choice of second row seats.
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2nd row in the Subaru Ascent is a bench for the base model, and in the Premium and Limited trims you can select either bench or captain's chairs as a NO COST option, but according to their specs, stepping up to the top Touring trim, you are forced to get the captain's chairs.

I BEGGED AND PLEADED when I participated in the Ascent focus group 9 months ago to not make the same mistake as Honda does on the Pilot Elite and assume that people that want the top trim and features don't care about maximum passenger space. They didn't listen. I have LOTS of situations where I want to haul 5 people AND carry a lot of cargo; captain's chairs make no sense to me. That's why we bought the Pilot Touring.
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piloteer867 said:
I believe the cargo area can fit a 70 inch TV.
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Well that's a relief! Spending $40,000. will save a $50 delivery charge. :grin:

Can I interest you in a pickup truck to save another $50 per year on seasonal garden mulch delivery? Great for other "stuff" too. But I did notice the splintered remains of a small piece of furniture protruding from a mangled box along the highway earlier today... :surprise:
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ChillyWind said:
If I remember correctly, one advantage of the Ascent is that Subaru gives you the choice of either captain or bench chairs for the second row at no additional cost. Not sure if it's just for the upper trims or not.



For the Pilot, you either get the Elite with captain chairs or the Touring with the bench chair. So if you wanted the bench chair you'd lose out on the blind spot monitoring and some other extras like LED headlights, etc.



At least Subaru (so far) gives you a choice of getting all the trimmings with the choice of second row seats.
Click to expand...


The Ascent Limited comes standard with brown captain chairs. You can’t switch to a bench unless you choose a trim below Limited.


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#1 Seminole
wkseidel said:
We are strongly considering a Pilot EX and are also considering the Highlander (and possibly even the Odyssey w/o the 9 speed transmission). I have recently started hearing more about the new Subaru Ascent with all the news coming out of the LA International Auto Show. Does anyone have thoughts on how this vehicle will compare with the Pilot - pros and cons? So far, the initial information sounds positive - reliable AWD system, solid safety features and good reliability. Thanks!
Click to expand...
Ok, I will only say this once. I can guarantee you it is going to have many problems. It may indeed be a Subaru, but you can't prevent a new from the ground up car from bad reliability in the first year or two. I despise the idea of a 4 cylinder in a SUV. Which is why I steered around the Mazda CX-9 the second I heard of its 4 cylinder. Oh and CVTs make it even worse. There are 2 brands in my opinion who make a good CVT: Honda and Toyota. I feel like Subaru's highlights how loud and knarly a 4 cylinder can sound. Nissan's are just not smooth. Anyway back to the Ascent. It is very appealing believe you me. I was tempted to wait for it when I saw the concept. In terms of re sale value, you won't do much better than the Pilot and Highlander. I will continue on the interior quality a hair more, because I thought the Pilot was luxurious compared to the other SUVs I had looked at, except for the Explorer Platinum. I think the cabin of the Pilot is elegant in a way, has really cool technology features, and has in my opinion the best navigation and infotainment system I have ever used. The Ascent and most other Subarus in my opinion just have a cheap dated feeling cabin and the infotainment system might have Carplay and A Auto, but the actual infotainment itself where you are spending most of your time is unintuitive and dated feeling. I can't truly comment on Subarus, because I have only owned GMCs and Cadillacs, my first Honda I am driving right now and my wife's Lincoln Continental didn't have 4000 miles before getting totaled (Everyone was ok). It really is your choice, you might even think I don't have any good things to share, but I just thought I would share my opinion, and what I have experienced first hand.
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#1 Seminole said:
Ok, I will only say this once. I can guarantee you it is going to have many problems. It may indeed be a Subaru, but you can't prevent a new from the ground up car from bad reliability in the first year or two. I despise the idea of a 4 cylinder in a SUV. Which is why I steered around the Mazda CX-9 the second I heard of its 4 cylinder. Oh and CVTs make it even worse. There are four brands in my opinion who make a good CVT: Honda and Toyota. I feel like Subaru's highlights how loud and knarly a 4 cylinder can sound. Nissan's are just not smooth. Anyway back to the Ascent. It is very appealing believe you me. I was tempted to wait for it when I saw the concept. In terms of re sale value, you won't do much better than the Pilot and Highlander. I will continue on the interior quality a hair more, because I thought the Pilot was luxurious compared to the other SUVs I had looked at, except for the Explorer Platinum. I think the cabin of the Pilot is elegant in a way, has really cool technology features, and has in my opinion the best navigation and infotainment system I have ever used. The Ascent and most other Subarus in my opinion just have a cheap dated feeling cabin and the infotainment system might have Carplay and A Auto, but the actual infotainment itself where you are spending most of your time is unintuitive and dated feeling. I can't truly comment on Subarus, because I have only owned GMCs and Cadillacs, my first Honda I am driving right now and my wife's Lincoln Continental didn't have 4000 miles before getting totaled (Everyone was ok). It really is your choice, you might even think I don't have any good things to share, but I just thought I would share my opinion, and what I have experienced first hand.
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How can you "guarantee" that the Ascent will have problems? I realize you meant that symbolically, but I have owned 3 Subarus that were first-year all-new models and had very, very few problems with them during my ownership. My 2004 and 2014 Foresters have had flawless reliability, and by 2010 Outback had 2 minor design issues that were fully addressed with free updates. I don't regret getting any of those 3 in the first year and I have full faith the Ascent will be at least average reliability.

Have you at least test driven any Subaru's with CVT's? (You stated you've never owned one.) They are considered among the best, so not sure why they're not on your list of favorite CVT's with Honda and Toyota. The CVT on my Subaru Forester is absolutely wonderful, responsive, quiet, and smooth as butter -- I honestly don't get all of the hate for CVT's except that people are just "used to" the sounds of shifting so CVTs feel weird. Well, Subaru has even addressed that by programming their CVT's to have simulated shift points so most people can't even tell they are CVT's now. They started doing this with the latest Impreza and Crosstrek models, and are applying that to the Ascent as a simulated 8-speed. Subaru has also been making a high-torque CVT for years now on the Forester XT (turbo) and the WRX. They've further improved the robustness for the Ascent's CVT (that's why it's rated for 5000 pounds towing) so I expect it to have rock-solid reliability and great performance matched to the new 2.4L turbo with the huge, flat peak torque curve from 2000-4500 RPM IIRC. It will surely be a better engine than their 3.6L H6 that feels like it has less power than it is rated for.
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piloteer867 said:
The Ascent Limited comes standard with brown captain chairs. You can’t switch to a bench unless you choose a trim below Limited.


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You are mostly correct except it's the top Ascent Touring that will have the captains chairs only and the brown leather.

The Limited is one step lower and can be had with either captains chairs or a bench.
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#1 Seminole
eps105 said:
How can you "guarantee" that the Ascent will have problems? I realize you meant that symbolically, but I have owned 3 Subarus that were first-year all-new models and had very, very few problems with them during my ownership. My 2004 and 2014 Foresters have had flawless reliability, and by 2010 Outback had 2 minor design issues that were fully addressed with free updates. I don't regret getting any of those 3 in the first year and I have full faith the Ascent will be at least average reliability.

Have you at least test driven any Subaru's with CVT's? (You stated you've never owned one.) They are considered among the best, so not sure why they're not on your list of favorite CVT's with Honda and Toyota. The CVT on my Subaru Forester is absolutely wonderful, responsive, quiet, and smooth as butter -- I honestly don't get all of the hate for CVT's except that people are just "used to" the sounds of shifting so CVTs feel weird. Well, Subaru has even addressed that by programming their CVT's to have simulated shift points so most people can't even tell they are CVT's now. They started doing this with the latest Impreza and Crosstrek models, and are applying that to the Ascent as a simulated 8-speed. Subaru has also been making a high-torque CVT for years now on the Forester XT (turbo) and the WRX. They've further improved the robustness for the Ascent's CVT (that's why it's rated for 5000 pounds towing) so I expect it to have rock-solid reliability and great performance matched to the new 2.4L turbo with the huge, flat peak torque curve from 2000-4500 RPM IIRC. It will surely be a better engine than their 3.6L H6 that feels like it has less power than it is rated for.
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Forgive me for sounding snarky, but if you had bothered to read my whole entire message, you would've seen that I have indeed driven Subaru CVTs and I am well in my rights to say its not smooth. Just like Pilot owners are to be able to say they don't like the tranny and idle stop. I can also complain of the lack of a smooth wonderful sounding V6. Also, not every single car is going to have a problem. Plus, your first year Subarus were designed when there wasn't a lot of technology. Just look at the new Impreza on Consumer Reports. It gets a Below Average reliability score. Oh, and with the 3.6 L V6, it isn't always about performance, its sometimes about the smoothness and sound of it. So, I am pretty confident that I can complain about Subaru and that there is probably going to be some problems.
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eps105 said:
Subaru has also been making a high-torque CVT for years now on the Forester XT (turbo) and the WRX.
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The snorting, coughing sound you just heard was thousands of diesel engined pickup truck drivers choking on their coffee. :grin:
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