Honda Pilot - Honda Pilot Forums banner

1 - 20 of 33 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hi,

Just got my 2004 Pilot last week. Was just wondering what everyone thought about when to perform the first oil change.

Dealer said wait for 3 months no matter what the mileage because of special additives that are in the initial oil.

Thanks
Ted
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,113 Posts
Congrats, and welcome. :D

Follow the maintenance schedule in the owner's manual and change it at 3,750 mile intervals for severe driving or 7,500 mile intervals for normal driving, or the recommended time lapse interval if you drive very few miles. I follow the severe schedule, and change the oil and filter ~ every 3,750 miles.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Nobody answered the original question.

Apparently, those who responded to the original question did not read it carefully. The original question asked about break-in additives that are supposedly in the oil when the car is delivered new. The question was not about regular oil change intervals and it did not ask for advice about regular oil change intervals.

Like the original poster, I am also curious about whether or not there is special oil in the car at delivery. However, it's too late for that now because, being a old-school guy myself, I changed the original oil after very few miles. I have done that with all my cars for 40 years and my 94 year-old father, a retired mechanical engineer, did that his whole life too. Having raced cars back in the 60s, I got into that habit with any new engine and it has served me well. I keep my cars a LONG time and they almost always run like new even with 250,000 miles on them. Yes, I know new engines are getting better and tolerances are tighter, but I change break-in oil early.

In a related issue, despite the fact that someone called anyone who would change oil at 2,000 miles "stupid" in another thread, I do just that and my engines last incredibly long. There are other advantages to doing that as well. Every time I change the oil, I check out everything and there have been times when, if I had not changed the oil as frequently, I would not have been aware of a problem that would have been disastrous if I had not discovered it. However, in my opinion, after 40 years of working on cars, I still believe that, in most cases, 3,000 oil and filter changes are the best overall plan. After reading some of the posts by some regular contributors to this board, I have come to the conclusion that some of those who are giving the most advice know absolutely nothing about engines from first-hand experience and are just blowing hot-air.


Anyway, as I said, the original question was not addressed. If someone knows if there actually is anything special about the oil that comes in a new Honda (not just a rumor), I would like to know about it and I know the person who posted the original question would as well. After all, he answered the question.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,140 Posts
Re: Nobody answered the original question.

ZoneIII said:
Apparently, those who responded to the original question did not read it carefully. The original question asked about break-in additives that are supposedly in the oil when the car is delivered new. The question was not about regular oil change intervals and it did not ask for advice about regular oil change intervals.

Like the original poster, I am also curious about whether or not there is special oil in the car at delivery. However, it's too late for that now because, being a old-school guy myself, I changed the original oil after very few miles. I have done that with all my cars for 40 years and my 94 year-old father, a retired mechanical engineer, did that his whole life too. Having raced cars back in the 60s, I got into that habit with any new engine and it has served me well. I keep my cars a LONG time and they almost always run like new even with 250,000 miles on them. Yes, I know new engines are getting better and tolerances are tighter, but I change break-in oil early.

In a related issue, despite the fact that someone called anyone who would change oil at 2,000 miles "stupid" in another thread, I do just that and my engines last incredibly long. There are other advantages to doing that as well. Every time I change the oil, I check out everything and there have been times when, if I had not changed the oil as frequently, I would not have been aware of a problem that would have been disastrous if I had not discovered it. However, in my opinion, after 40 years of working on cars, I still believe that, in most cases, 3,000 oil and filter changes are the best overall plan. After reading some of the posts by some regular contributors to this board, I have come to the conclusion that some of those who are giving the most advice know absolutely nothing about engines from first-hand experience and are just blowing hot-air.


Anyway, as I said, the original question was not addressed. If someone knows if there actually is anything special about the oil that comes in a new Honda (not just a rumor), I would like to know about it and I know the person who posted the original question would as well. After all, he answered the question.
Harsh! :2:

I do not KNOW if the oil is special in any way.
I do KNOW Honda says so in there literature.
They say so on their web site.
They say so in their service manuals.
They will tell you so if you call (Honda corp).
They have told the dealer not to change it early.

Seems like a lot of work if it was not important for some reason.

I highly suspect that Honda wants a particular oil in the engine for the first full scheduled oil change interval.

It could be because it has specific additives that aid break-in.
It could be because it does not have specific additives that harm break-in.
It could be because it is different from the normal recommended viscosity.
It could be because Honda is concerned about the use of synthetic during break-in.
It could be due to a combination of some of the above issues.

What I do KNOW FOR A FACT, Honda Knows why, and no one else here has better insight to the reasons that they do.

Based on those facts, I see no reason to not follow the recommendation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Talk about harsh!

Any harshness thay you perceived in my post was simply in response to a very harsh post by someone else. There was no reason for you to get so defensive.

I would also suggest that if you do not have an answer to a question, don't reply. Your response did not answer my question.

Calm down!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,113 Posts
Re: Re: Nobody answered the original question.

N_Jay said:
Harsh! :2:

As I'm that poster who didn't read the question, I agree. But the only thing that lengthy post did, other than potentially offend someone, was to show that some people admit to being old, set in their ways, and unable to comprehend new ways of doing things.:(
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Jay

You clearly have some serious growing up to do. Calling someone "old, set in their ways, and unable to comprehend new ways of doing things" simply because they change their oil more frequently than you do, based on many years of experience with cars is going a bit far, don't you think? As a matter of fact, I think you owe me an apology.

I am 54 years old which does not exactly put me in the geriatric category. Having done all my own work on cars since my teens, built and raced cars and motorcyles while keeping up with the latest automotive technology does add to my experience level. And the condition of the engines in my cars speaks for itself. Also, if you will read my post more carefully, I did not suggest that anyone else should change their oil at 2,00 mile intervals. I merely pointed out that I do. Calling someone names and insulting them because they change their oil more frequently than you is a bit over the top, I would say.

By the way, there is a world out there besides this bulletin board. You might want to check it out sometime.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,140 Posts
ZoneIII said:
Talk about harsh!

Any harshness thay you perceived in my post was simply in response to a very harsh post by someone else. There was no reason for you to get so defensive.

I would also suggest that if you do not have an answer to a question, don't reply. Your response did not answer my question.

Calm down!
Not getting defensive.

(Note to the board, :2: is used to indicate humor or sarcasm to help people know what is said (typed) should be taken in with a bit of levity!)

As for my "answer"; Yes, I do not have a definitive answer, but I was trying to show what was likely the correct answer based on the facts I do have.

One issue with on-line forum like this.
People are very careless in how they present facts and beliefs.
This leads to a lot of the confusion between what others see as conflicting information.

(Some might ASSUME that these people have actually confused facts and beliefs, but that would required drawing a conclusion not proven :2: ) (Better add a second one of those :2: :2: )
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
144 Posts
I did an oil analysis at 2500 and 5000 miles on the original oil and each report showed a large amount of Molybdenum in the oil. I believe this is why Honda recommends leaving the oil in for about 5000 miles.

With a combination of city and highway miles, the original oil was still OK for probably another 2500 miles. The oil analysis report indicated high amounts of silicon, copper and other wear metals that were normal for engine break in. I did change the oil at 5000 and switched to AMSOIL Series 2000 0W-30.

I hope this helps explain, in part, Honda's recommendation for running the original oil to the recommended mileage.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
Jay,

After a little checking, I get the impression that you like to make up "facts." You wrote (about supposed break-in oil):

"They say so on their web site.
They say so in their service manuals.
They will tell you so if you call (Honda corp).
They have told the dealer not to change it early."


Hmmmmm!

Addressing these points in order...

1) What literature are you referring to? The only mention that I can find on the subject is in my owner's manual and, even there, they do not mention anything about special break-in oil. They merely mention that the oil should not be changed before the recommended interval. Anyone with any knowledge of engines would question that. In fact, my independent local service center manager (a certified master mechanic) laughed at the idea NOT changing break-in oil soon. But I suppose that he is too old to know better even though he runs the family business that was handed down to him from his father and which has been in operation for over 50 years! You know better, of course. After all, you have "read the literature."

2) I find nothing on the Honda website about the matter. Maybe you can provide a link?

3) I would like to see the page in the service manual that says so as you claim. That would be interesting. If you have it, I would appreciate it if you would scan it and post it. But I am very surprised that you would even own a Honda service manual since you clearly do not work on cars yourself or even have a fundamental understanding of mechanics. Archair mechanics don't need service manuals.

4) Are you telling me that you actually called Honda Corp to ask them about break-in oil? lol Why would you do that when it says (you claim) there was a special break-in oil in all the "literature"?

5) How do you know what Honda has told the dealers? I asked my Honda service department about his and they said that no special oil is used in the car during break-in. They said that there is no problem with changing it early and, in fact, the service manager said that he does just that himself with all his own cars.


Then you go on to speculate.....



"Seems like a lot of work if it was not important for some reason.

I highly suspect that Honda wants a particular oil in the engine for the first full scheduled oil change interval.

It could be because it has specific additives that aid break-in.
It could be because it does not have specific additives that harm break-in.
It could be because it is different from the normal recommended viscosity.
It could be because Honda is concerned about the use of synthetic during break-in.
It could be due to a combination of some of the above issues.

What I do KNOW FOR A FACT, Honda Knows why, and no one else here has better insight to the reasons that they do.

Based on those facts, I see no reason to not follow the recommendation."



That's a lot of speculation, son. The bottom line (and you admit this) is that you just don't know. Neither do I. Neither does the guy who asked the original question and that's exactly why he asked it. It was a good question.



One thing you are going to have to learn, son, is to think for yourself, especially when information on a subject is contradictory. Recommendations are often made for surprising reasons. As anyone who does any of their own work on anything (not just cars) knows, owner's manuals are full of silly recommendations. Certainly, you know that!

I will tell you this: As anyone who has ever worked on cars knows, when a new engine is broken in, bits of metal and other manufacturing debris is distributed in the oil. Some of this will not be trapped in an oil filter. Also, oil is broken down more quickly in a tight new engine. As any "old guy" (who, as you claim, cannot comprehend new technology) knows, it is always a good idea to change oil in a new engine fairly soon to eliminate that debris. It is not surprising at all that owner's manuals do not tell you that. As a matter of fact, they never did - or at least they haven't done so in at least 30 years or so. Manufacturers know that young buyers like yourself do not want to bother with such fine points and that they wouldn't't understand it anyway. But ask anyone who builds engines about this. This is not rocket science - it is very basic. In fact, I can think of one very simple reason why Honda would recommend that you not change break-in oil early even though it may be good to do so..... They may simply want the oil to remain in the car until all the manufacturing debris is in the oil before it is changed. That is why people who build engines change the oil at short intervals for the first few oil changes and many people would not want to bother with that. For example, with a new car, I change the oil at 500 miles, then at 1,500 miles, then at 3,000 miles and then at my regular interval after that. That is because I understand how new engines break in. You obviously don't so you would get confused by that. But what do us "old" guys know? Not much, I guess, but I can tell you that my engines run almost like new after 250,000 miles!

So, while you choose to spend your days speculating about things you obviously have no actual hands-on knowledge of and insulting older, more experienced people on the Honda forums, you may want to consider actually learning something about automotive technology from something other than an owner's manual. And do not be so quick to bash experience.



Someone asked a simple and logical question. Not only did you not answer it, but you chose to insult me personally. You also insulted people on another forum. Ironically, while insulting others, you whine that they are too harsh(???).

If you do not have the answer to a question, I would suggest that you simply not answer it. But to attack an insult others is another matter entirely.
 

·
Admin Du Jour ®
Joined
·
989 Posts
Honda does use a "special" factory fill that has high levels of moly for break-in. As Aggie Pilot mentioned, this is evident in VOA and UOA if you've had them done.

That said, it does make sense to drain the factory fill sooner than 7500 to get rid of the wear metals; 3000 -- or 3750 (if you're on a severe schedule to keep it simple) makes sense to me.

IMO, a 2k interval could be justified for the first time around just to flush the wear metals, but it is unneccesary and a waste of money beyond that initial drain and fill. I'd also replace an early drain/fill with a dino that uses moly.

If you want to do 2k intervals going forward, it's your money to waste however you please.
 

·
Admin Du Jour ®
Joined
·
989 Posts
ZoneIII said:
Someone asked a simple and logical question. Not only did you not answer it, but you chose to insult me personally. You also insulted people on another forum. Ironically, while insulting others, you whine that they are too harsh(???).

If you do not have the answer to a question, I would suggest that you simply not answer it. But to attack an insult others is another matter entirely.
Pot, meet kettle. :rolleyes:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
11,113 Posts
ZoneIII said:
Jay,

After a little checking

...snip

Just to be clear, I'm jay, and he's N_Jay, and I regret my earlier post.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,140 Posts
Not in order. :2:

2. From the Honda Owners Link web site;

Why should I wait to change the oil the first time?
Your Honda engine was delivered with an oil that is specially formulated for new engines that have not yet developed their "natural" wear patterns and may contain minute particles from the manufacturing process.
American Honda strongly recommends this special oil be left in the engine long enough for these wear patterns to develop, usually until the first maintenance interval specified in your Owner's Manual, based on your specific driving conditions.

1. I think the Owners Manual has almost the same text, but I would have to go look to sure.

3. My mistake, I do not see it in the Pilot service manual (ordered from Helminc.com along with the ETM, to match the set for my CR-V)

4. Call to Honda was specifically about my CR-V since there was some confusion on the required 5W20 vs. 5W30 oil and the requirement to leave the break-in oil in for 5000 miles.

Check out some CR-V boards archives back in early 2002 and you will find the discussions.

My speculation "Seems like a lot of work if it was not important for some reason." comes from my experience as Product Manager.
I have some experience in writing user manual and setting dealer/distributor policies.

Using this background I strongly disagree with your statement "owner's manuals are full of silly recommendations"!

As for my experience with cars and engine building, I have been working on cars and building engines since I was about 14.

I am no expert or professional but I am far from an Armchair mechanic.

And mellow out on worrying about what you perceive as insults.

Take what I say in the manner it is intended, provide you opinion with the facts that support it.
Be clear what is FACT and what is belief, and be willing to update you beliefs as we all collectively learn.

By the way, I also believe in changing the oil very early in hand built or rebuilt engines, but BELIEVE that the manufactures are right in not having to change the oil early with today's precision manufacturing.

One more quick note.

I am N_Jay, the other person posting is Jay, I am not sure who all your connects were aimed at.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
N Jay,


I think you should reread your own post and take your own advice. When you insult someone, don't whine and complain when you get the same in return.

But sorry for the confusion about Jay and N Jay. I guess that's what happens when you get to be an old fart who cannot comprhend anything.

;)


As for 2,000 mile oil changes..... I totally agree. It's overkill. It's a habit I got into and when I reached that point, wear on my engines almost ceased entirely. Also, it is a mileage point that, with all my other cars, revealed that the oil was clean and clear at change time. And, yes, new engines are better. But, believe it or not, I actually enjoy doing regular maintenence. I find it very satisfying to go through routine maintenence procedures. Changing oil in a car takes no more than 10 - 15 minutes and I check everything else out at that time. However, I am also aware that Honda engines are very well engineered and tolerances are very tight and I am going to switch back to a 3,000 interval and see how the oil looks. In any case, it's my time and money.


As for break-in oil..... it has been around for quite a while. Unfortuanately, automakers have not always been clear about whether or not they are actually using it and, in my opinion, it's not the optimal way to break in an engine (notice - "my opinion"). As someone above pointed out (correctly) metal particles will be present in the oil of new engines. This is normal. The traditional way of dealing with this was early and frequent oil changes during break-in. I still opt for that method. I want the particulate matter out of my engine. I suspect that Honda's use of break-in oil is merely an acknowledgement that people these days do not want to be bothered with such extra maintenance. They have to make it simple for them. But ask anyone who builds engines or races cars what they do with new engines. I can guarantee you that they will not tell you that they use break-in oil and/or leave it in for any length of time. In my opinion, break-in oil is merely a compromise which addresses the fact that people these days don't want to be bothered with maintenance and they do not understand the mechanics involved.

Someone (I think it was the guy who said I should back up what I say with facts - funny that he doesn't!), said that short interval follow-up changes are a waste. He also told me to separate opinion from fact but I noticed that he stated this as a fact without backing it up. Again, I follow a tried and true engine-builder's procedure. Obviously, the bulk of metalic debris will be produced in the very first miles. I flush that out. But metal particles will develop in the changed oil faster than it will once the engine is broken in. After all, this is part of what "break-in" is. For that reason, I change oil more frequently for the first three oil changes with each interval slightly longer than the previous one. Again, this is nothing new. Engine builders do this and for good reason. It's common sense. Not necessary, of course, but for those willing to go to a little more trouble and expense, like me, it pays off with incredibly long engine life. And my engines run like new at 250,000 or more and they have never had major work done on them. In fact, for those things that I do have to take my car into a shop for (alignment, etc.), my shop is always amazed at how well my engines run with so many miles on them. It has almost become a joke at our local shop. My engines last forever.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,140 Posts
Maybe I was not clear, it happens when typing quickly, trying to address several issues and such.

1. I don't think I complained at all about being insulted.

2. Honda has been very clear in that the fgactory fill is a "special" oil (using their term). I misquoted one refference by accident, but had all of the refferences dismissed along with my creditability! (Not very nice, but I did not complain, I just clairified!)

3. Yes, many of us know about break-in oil, some do not. The issue was about draining the break-in oil early due to the belief that the factory fill would be excessivly contaminated in less than the recommended change schedule.

Unlike engines of the past the filter is a full flow filter, so only particles smaller than the filter medium would continue to circulate.
I would hazzard the guess that a factory fresh Honda engine does not contain a fraction of the forien mkatter and machining waste that a hand built engine has, or even a factory engine of just a decade back.

You seem to have a great disregard for the engineers that work for Honda. I am very sure the product people who write the manuals and web sites would not go to the effort to add paragraphs about leaving the oil in if it were not specficifcally recommended by engineering.
At the most they would present it as a fantastic "improvement" rather than a warning.

Lastly:
You missed my point about "Opinions" vs. "Facts".
I have no problem with people stating Opinions. My point was that some people are careless about how they are presented and the reader may not be able to separate the statement of an opinion from the statement of a fact.
You have many opinions, I am sure you have facts behind most of them. Just take the time to read what others say carefully.
If you have facts to correct an erronious opinion please add them to the discussion.
If you have a differing opinion, add that, but as a differing opinion, not as an oposing fact.
And be open to learning and teaching so we can all become more knowlegable.

And when all else fails, make a joke!:2: :2:

We are a fun bunch!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,190 Posts
ZoneIII said:
[ S N I P P E D ]
But sorry for the confusion about Jay and N Jay. I guess that's what happens when you get to be an old fart who cannot comprhend anything.

;)
[ S N I P P E D ]
Just for the record, there is one and only one official Olde Fart on the honda-pilot.org forums and he's one of the other Moderators: colorider!!! ;)

:p :p :p
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
56 Posts
LOL!

Thanks, kimosabe, but I will never remember that name. In fact, I am having a hard time remembering what it is that I am doing here right now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
602 Posts
ZoneIII said:
LOL!

Thanks, kimosabe, but I will never remember that name. In fact, I am having a hard time remembering what it is that I am doing here right now.
That's Kemosabe, not Kimosabe. I think there might be a Kimosabe too!

And now I'm beginning to wonder if N_Jay and Jay are the same person? Who knows???
 
1 - 20 of 33 Posts
Top