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It doesn’t have to be as bad as -40 to recognize the difference in the way an engine with synthetic oil turns over on cold winter mornings.
Minus 40 is where Celsius and Fahrenheit are both exactly the same to at least three decimals. Techies like that to prevent misinterpreting the endpoint. But practically, additives can lower the pour point by 40 degrees. So at minus 30 it can/will still flow with the right additives. Minus 40 is about the oil, not the additives.
 

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Discussion Starter #84 (Edited)
People can talk all they want about dino oil and how often they change it, blah blah blah ... but those few seconds at cold startup make all the difference in the world. Not whether you change at 3000 miles or 7000.
It doesn’t have to be as bad as -40 to recognize the difference in the way an engine with synthetic oil turns over on cold winter mornings.
Seriously, even if the fluidity of the GIF I posted was twice as much, it still wouldn't make me comfortable at 10°F. We're talking about all of Canada half the US on a cold winter's day.
Time to update the buyers guide...
Did the owner DIY oil changes with full synthetic and a quality filter? ✅
 

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Not whether you change at 3000 miles or 7000
My non scientific observations do not agree. When I replace cams, timing chains, and even stuck rings, it tends to be in vehs that follow the mm, instead of the 5k intervals we recommend. I look at the records on every internal engine failure/issue, and the pattern seems to follow those with issues used a higher oci. I seen an internal report from mobile that looked at oil degradation vs mileage. One would think it would be a slow decline, but it was rapid 200-300 miles from good to bad. At that time (2001), 5k was concluded to be best oci. Would be interesting to know if that study still holds true.
 

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I seen an internal report from mobile that looked at oil degradation vs milage. One would think it would be a slow decline, but it was rapid 200-300 miles from good to bad. At that time (2001), 5k was concluded to be best oci. Would be interesting to know if that study still holds true.
One would imagine so since they're now selling certain formulas of motor oil which they claim can be used for up to 20K miles.
 

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It doesn’t have to be as bad as -40 to recognize the difference in the way an engine with synthetic oil turns over on cold winter mornings.
When you're at -40, or not as bad, how much of the way the engine turns over is a function of the motor oil versus the battery?
 

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My non scientific observations do not agree. When I replace cams, timing chains, and even stuck rings, it tends to be in vehs that follow the mm, instead of the 5k intervals we recommend. I look at the records on every internal engine failure/issue, and the pattern seems to follow those with issues used a higher oci. I seen an internal report from mobile that looked at oil degradation vs mileage. One would think it would be a slow decline, but it was rapid 200-300 miles from good to bad. At that time (2001), 5k was concluded to be best oci. Would be interesting to know if that study still holds true.
Twenty years is a long time even in development time. Mobil's "behind the scenes" testing to prove out new long oci formulations to marketing's challenge for a 20,000 mile oil would seem to indicate there is more to their claim than just marketing speak. Amsoil's claim for even longer intervals is backed by empirical testing as well.

When discussing oil change intervals, I don't think you'd disagree that the oil used determines how long it should be, using the oil manufacturers tested limits not the vehicles MM or a one size fits all 5k interval. The rapid degradation in only 200-300 miles is characteristic of one or more additives reaching their limit to fight off further oxidation, dilution, viscosity increase, acid neutralization, film strength, et al. I think you'll also agree that there are "hard" and "easy" mileage accumulation stresses on oil that have a huge impact on how often the oil should be changed.

The "old school" of every 3,000 miles with dino oil is slowly migrating to longer oci's as the better synthetics prove their ability to not only exceed 5,000 miles but go even longer. But not all synthetics are equal so perhaps 5,000 is a good conservative number for some, maybe many, while Mobil's 20,000 mile and Amsoil's 24,000 mile claims may hold up safely considerably longer than 5,000 miles by whatever margin your belief in the testing and risk aversion allow.

I'm comfortable going 8,000 miles or a year with Amsoil Signature and my use is severe ... short trips, stop and go, some towing. Never lost an engine using Amsoil and annual oil changes.
 

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When you're at -40, or not as bad, how much of the way the engine turns over is a function of the motor oil versus the battery?
Synthetic oils are known to flow better at lower temps making them ideal for extreme temps. Conventional oils tend to become thick (high viscosity) at lower temps slowing oil flow which can be a factor for efficient startup and engine wear during cold startup. Of course having a strong high CCA battery will help in either case.
 

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Discussion Starter #90
Twenty years is a long time even in development time. Mobil's "behind the scenes" testing to prove out new long oci formulations to marketing's challenge for a 20,000 mile oil would seem to indicate there is more to their claim than just marketing speak. Amsoil's claim for even longer intervals is backed by empirical testing as well.

When discussing oil change intervals, I don't think you'd disagree that the oil used determines how long it should be, using the oil manufacturers tested limits not the vehicles MM or a one size fits all 5k interval. The rapid degradation in only 200-300 miles is characteristic of one or more additives reaching their limit to fight off further oxidation, dilution, viscosity increase, acid neutralization, film strength, et al. I think you'll also agree that there are "hard" and "easy" mileage accumulation stresses on oil that have a huge impact on how often the oil should be changed.

The "old school" of every 3,000 miles with dino oil is slowly migrating to longer oci's as the better synthetics prove their ability to not only exceed 5,000 miles but go even longer. But not all synthetics are equal so perhaps 5,000 is a good conservative number for some, maybe many, while Mobil's 20,000 mile and Amsoil's 24,000 mile claims may hold up safely considerably longer than 5,000 miles by whatever margin your belief in the testing and risk aversion allow.

I'm comfortable going 8,000 miles or a year with Amsoil Signature and my use is severe ... short trips, stop and go, some towing. Never lost an engine using Amsoil and annual oil changes.
I pushed oil changes on a Honda V6 to 10k miles. Did it for years with Mobil 1 Extended Performance oil. In that 10k mile period, it was common top top off the oil frequently. I quit using this oil due to evaporation. IMO, the problem with 10k + mile oil changes is not the oil, it's the small filter not capable of keeping the oil clean for that long. The Mobil 1 filter M1-110A would be doing good to last that long, much less 15k. It's just to small.
 

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I pushed oil changes on a Honda V6 to 10k miles. Did it for years with Mobil 1 Extended Performance oil. In that 10k mile period, it was common top top off the oil frequently. I quit using this oil due to evaporation. IMO, the problem with 10k + mile oil changes is not the oil, it's the small filter not capable of keeping the oil clean for that long. The Mobil 1 filter M1-110A would be doing good to last that long, much less 15k. It's just to small.
Agree.

And while I've watched oil filters get smaller as oci's get longer, a "throw the baby out with the bath water" approach seems to have taken hold since filters have historically only been changed with the oil. Worse yet, now I'm hearing about some manufacturers' or technicians' recommendations to only change the filter every other oil change. Should be the other way around. Change the oil every other filter change.

Hand in hand with undersized filters compounding the problem is filter vendors' marketing push to be able to advertise high filter efficiencies for smaller particle sizes.

The problem lies in the fact that those efficiencies only hold as long as the bypass valve doesn't open. And to add insult to injury, even 20 microns look like pretty sizable boulders grinding on highly polished contact surfaces measured in sub 1 micron finishes (Ra). The smaller stuff that gets through even a clean new filter that you can't see (oil looks clean) are wearing away at the engine, it's just a finer grit abrasive.

Given there's a diminishing point of return protecting a non-commercial vehicle engine from sub 20 micron abrasive wear, I haven't bothered to use a bypass filter that's capable of 98% efficiency down to 2 microns (touted by Amsoil and maybe others). But certainly a larger filter media area in full flow filters is better than the shrinking trend we are seeing, be it for manufacturing cost savings or shrinking room under the hood to cram in more sales gadgets, computer sensors, cpu's and EPA, CAFE and other regulatory compliant troublemakers.

So while bigger filters exist, if they won't fit in the available space, it might be a good idea to change the filter more often than the oil, providing the oil is a high quality synthetic. A sensor to detect rising back pressure at the filter input ports would be helpful.
 

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Discussion Starter #92
Agree.

And while I've watched oil filters get smaller as oci's get longer, a "throw the baby out with the bath water" approach seems to have taken hold since filters have historically only been changed with the oil. Worse yet, now I'm hearing about some manufacturers' or technicians' recommendations to only change the filter every other oil change. Should be the other way around. Change the oil every other filter change.

Hand in hand with undersized filters compounding the problem is filter vendors' marketing push to be able to advertise high filter efficiencies for smaller particle sizes.

The problem lies in the fact that those efficiencies only hold as long as the bypass valve doesn't open. And to add insult to injury, even 20 microns look like pretty sizable boulders grinding on highly polished contact surfaces measured in sub 1 micron finishes (Ra). The smaller stuff that gets through even a clean new filter that you can't see (oil looks clean) are wearing away at the engine, it's just a finer grit abrasive.

Given there's a diminishing point of return protecting a non-commercial vehicle engine from sub 20 micron abrasive wear, I haven't bothered to use a bypass filter that's capable of 98% efficiency down to 2 microns (touted by Amsoil and maybe others). But certainly a larger filter media area in full flow filters is better than the shrinking trend we are seeing, be it for manufacturing cost savings or shrinking room under the hood to cram in more sales gadgets, computer sensors, cpu's and EPA, CAFE and other regulatory compliant troublemakers.

So while bigger filters exist, if they won't fit in the available space, it might be a good idea to change the filter more often than the oil, providing the oil is a high quality synthetic. A sensor to detect rising back pressure at the filter input ports would be helpful.
I actually ordered a Wix 51344 in hopes of getting it on my 3rd gen. The sub frame prevents it. It would have been a 40% increase in size. I had to settle for a 16% increase with Wix 51334. It appears (visually) that 1st Gen Pilots can use a Wix 51344. I don't know of anyone who has tried. I can't emphasize pre-fill to the top enough if you use this monster.
It would be nice to have a sensor for a dirty oil filter. We got a sensor for everything else.
 
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I actually ordered a Wix 51344 in hopes of getting it on my 3rd gen. The sub frame prevents it. It would have been a 40% increase in size. I had to settle for a 16% increase with Wix 51334. It appears (visually) that 1st Gen Pilots can use a Wix 51344. I don't know of anyone who has tried. I can't emphasize pre-fill to the top enough if you use this monster.
It would be nice to have a sensor for a dirty oil filter. We got a sensor for everything else.
Will the 51344 fit 2nd gen or whatever the 2012 is?

Barring an electronic filter sensor, some kind of inexpensive indicator (like the "I'm done" popups that come with some turkeys and roasts) showing the bypass spring had been sprung ... would be a neat feature. Since enough people might not care about it, or the filter manufacturer didn't want to call attention to PBS (premature bypass syndrome) maybe an add-on third party device could be a commercially viable option although I wouldn't quit my day job to develop and market one.

I can't wait for electric cars to replace these oily gas guzzlers so we can endlessly opine about the best chargers, battery coolers and EMI filters. Man, if we think we have growing electrical problems now, you ain't seen nothing yet. We'll have to hope the next generation of mechanics that aren't bothered by not being able to see electrons get here. Right now it's, ask the computer, guess what it's trying to say, replace everything remotely a cause and wait for the car to come back enough times that the chances of guessing right from the shrinking number of remaining possibilities finally proves successful.
 

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Discussion Starter #94
Will the 51344 fit 2nd gen or whatever the 2012 is?
2012 is 2nd Gen.
I know the threads, gasket and bypass valve specs are correct. Its whether or not there is space to get it started on the threads.
I ordered the 51344 from RockAuto cheap. I installed it on a Nissan NV V8 that calls for a Honda equivalent filter.
 

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Discussion Starter #95
Barring an electronic filter sensor, some kind of inexpensive indicator (like the "I'm done" popups that come with some turkeys and roasts) showing the bypass spring had been sprung ... would be a neat feature. Since enough people might not care about it, or the filter manufacturer didn't want to call attention to PBS (premature bypass syndrome) maybe an add-on third party device could be a commercially viable option although I wouldn't quit my day job to develop and market one.
Oh man! What an idea!
Just put the 2 together. Lol
143853

😁
 
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I can't wait for electric cars to replace these oily gas guzzlers so we can endlessly opine about the best chargers, battery coolers and EMI filters. Man, if we think we have growing electrical problems now, you ain't seen nothing yet. We'll have to hope the next generation of mechanics that aren't bothered by not being able to see electrons get here. Right now it's, ask the computer, guess what it's trying to say, replace everything remotely a cause and wait for the car to come back enough times that the chances of guessing right from the shrinking number of remaining possibilities finally proves successful.
Watch enough of the South Main Auto videos and you might conclude that, more often than not, the cause of electrical problems ends up being not due to failed components but instead a result of broken/frayed/chewed-by-critters wires or connectors afflicted with a case of the "green crusties." You could load and fire the parts cannon at those problems all day long and never fix them successfully.
 

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My non scientific observations do not agree. When I replace cams, timing chains, and even stuck rings, it tends to be in vehs that follow the mm, instead of the 5k intervals we recommend. I look at the records on every internal engine failure/issue, and the pattern seems to follow those with issues used a higher oci. I seen an internal report from mobile that looked at oil degradation vs mileage. One would think it would be a slow decline, but it was rapid 200-300 miles from good to bad. At that time (2001), 5k was concluded to be best oci. Would be interesting to know if that study still holds true.
Engine oil is going to break down based on how much an engine runs and I agree that 5k is a reasonable and safe oci which I will stick to. It's all about the oils ability to maintain that film between metal parts that is the important factor, not so much about the efficiency of the filter. I will still change the filter at every oil change too.
 

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(this was before the days hijacking made the cockpit out of bounds for passengers)
Those were the days. On my first flight to Paris, the 747 stewardess, sorry, flight attendant, actually came to my seat and asked if I wanted to go up into the cockpit. I enthusiastically said yes and did. And I was a longhair yahoo.

Walmart Canada will not deliver oil and other automotive fluids, nor even do a curbside pickup for them, presumably because of some safety and security thing, I hate it when the terrorists win.

143868


those with issues used a higher oci.
OCD is good for OCI. :)

Worse yet, now I'm hearing about some manufacturers' or technicians' recommendations to only change the filter every other oil change.
Like the Pilot?
143870
 

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Yes, I will be getting full synthetic Honda / Idemitsu 0W-20 out of factory sealed bottles every time and a genuine Honda oil filter every 5000 (max) miles because I will only be doing it myself just like my previous Hondas.
 
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Discussion Starter #100
Yes, I will be getting full synthetic Honda / Idemitsu 0W-20 out of factory sealed bottles every time and a genuine Honda oil filter every 5000 (max) miles because I will only be doing it myself just like my previous Hondas.
Correct, your doing it yourself. You know what's going in.
 
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