Honda Pilot - Honda Pilot Forums banner

1 - 20 of 31 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
So, I finally got time to do the timing belt swap, including the tensioner, idler and water pump. After the two hours it took to get the bolt out of the crank every thing was going along smoothly until I was ready to set the marks on the cams and crank. I had already pulled off the crank pulley and then put it back on to swing the crank around to get the marks to line up. Inadvertently I lost the crank key on the ground so when I spun the crank, it turned, but the cams did not. So I am in a dilemma. The belt is still on so I am thinking that there is just one of two positions the crank needs to be in to get the key back in. Any idea how to tell if I am in the right spot before proceeding. Can I pick a spot, put the key in and then the bolt and turn the engine by hand to see if it goes through 2 full cycles without any restriction. IF not then pull the key, turn the crank 360 and inset the key again....??????? I'm kinda lost here. The car is all the way apart and I need it on Monday.

Thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
226 Posts
So, I finally got time to do the timing belt swap, including the tensioner, idler and water pump. After the two hours it took to get the bolt out of the crank every thing was going along smoothly until I was ready to set the marks on the cams and crank. I had already pulled off the crank pulley and then put it back on to swing the crank around to get the marks to line up. Inadvertently I lost the crank key on the ground so when I spun the crank, it turned, but the cams did not. So I am in a dilemma. The belt is still on so I am thinking that there is just one of two positions the crank needs to be in to get the key back in. Any idea how to tell if I am in the right spot before proceeding. Can I pick a spot, put the key in and then the bolt and turn the engine by hand to see if it goes through 2 full cycles without any restriction. IF not then pull the key, turn the crank 360 and inset the key again....??????? I'm kinda lost here. The car is all the way apart and I need it on Monday.

Thanks
Dont know why you removed crank pulley but at this point, it is water under the bridge. You are saying that the crank has 2 keyways 180 degrees opposed?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Discussion Starter #3
Removed the crank pulley to replace the belt. I probably did it too early but as you said it is done. Now I have to fix it.
The crank and the crank timing belt pulley both have only one keyway. The crank got turned but the crank pulley stayed where it was since the key was not in there. I'm not sure how to proceed or how to verify when it is in the correct position. I think that the crank got turned about 220 degrees so I could (if that's OK on this engine) to turn the crank back to the slot and reinstall the key and then proceed to the TDC setting. I am concerned that I may be 180 out on the cams though. So, my questions:
1) can I spin the crank backwards to match up the two keyways?
a) yes - how can I verify that it is in the right sync with the cams?

2) or would I turn the crank forward the 500 degrees to get them to line up. I'm thinking here that the crank has to turn two rotations to each one of the cam.....

from here back to 1a) how can I verify the cam and crank are incorrect sync. Seems like I can turn the engine forward a few rotations by hand and verify there is no interference and if not I would be OK.

Any idea on this?

Thanks
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
Nobody has any ideas...???

Can I turn the cams to align the keyway and then reinstall the crank pulley and then turn the engine slowly to verify it is in the correct position? I am thinking that the crank turns twice for each cam revolution so the key will only align in two positions, only one of which is correct. I believe I only turned the crank part of the way around so catching the cams up to it seems the best start.

Am i correct that the crank makes two turns for each cam revolution?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
OK.....no help here so far.

This is what I have done.

I turned the cams together until the key holes matched up in both the crank and the crank timing belt gear. I inserted the key and replaced the outside (accessory) crank pulley.
I then turned the engine over 2.5 times on the crank with no contact felt. I assume that I would feel the engine stop turning over if I was in the wrong sync position...?
I have now placed the engine with the crank arrows aligned and there is one (front) cam with a mark at the top in line with the mark on the case. The second (rear) cam has a mark on the pulley at the bottom of the cam....not the top as expected. The cams and crank pulleys were never removed so they are the same as they were before the problem occurred.


Questions:
1) will the engine stop if I have the wrong sync on the crank shaft?

2) is turning the crank more then two full turns sufficient to verify that there is no contact with valves and pistons in the engine?

3) does the crank turn 2X for every cam revolution.

Anybody out there that can help me?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,891 Posts
@Rocky
@STMech

I think you guys have done timing belt jobs. Hopefully you can provide the OP some advice.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
711 Posts
OK.....no help here so far.

This is what I have done.

I turned the cams together until the key holes matched up in both the crank and the crank timing belt gear. I inserted the key and replaced the outside (accessory) crank pulley.
I then turned the engine over 2.5 times on the crank with no contact felt. I assume that I would feel the engine stop turning over if I was in the wrong sync position...?
I have now placed the engine with the crank arrows aligned and there is one (front) cam with a mark at the top in line with the mark on the case. The second (rear) cam has a mark on the pulley at the bottom of the cam....not the top as expected. The cams and crank pulleys were never removed so they are the same as they were before the problem occurred.


Questions:
1) will the engine stop if I have the wrong sync on the crank shaft?

2) is turning the crank more then two full turns sufficient to verify that there is no contact with valves and pistons in the engine?

3) does the crank turn 2X for every cam revolution.

Anybody out there that can help me?
Yes, the crank turns twice for every cam(s) rotation.

If you've rotated the crank by hand at least two rotations without binding, then you might be there.

To get all of it back to reference, pull the coil pack and plug for cylinder 1 (passenger side, cabin side), rotate crank to align the crank mark and BOTH cam pulley marks. The piston for #1 should be top dead. To verify, put a dowel into the spark plug hole, then jockey the crank pulley back and forth 5 degrees or so and watch the dowel. It should rise and fall. The dowel's highest point should coorespond to alignment of marks of all pulleys. If not, then the crank is 180 off.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Discussion Starter #8
AVC, Thanks for the reply. I was getting frantic. I need the car on Monday morning.

I have another question of two, if you can help with them.

When I line up the arrows on the crank, I get the front cam marks to line up but the rear cam mark is at the bottom, not the top as expected. I have not removed the belt yet so it is as it was when I started. The car has been to the dealer right after we bought it used and had, according to the dealer, three new pistons put in the back bank......and it has run fine for over 50K miles since then.

Here is where I am now.
1) crank
IMG_9798.JPG

2) rear cam...the mark on the pulley is under the paint. There is no mark on the top of the pulley itself.
IMG_9803.JPG

3) top of rear cam.....no mark under the paint here.
IMG_9802.JPG

4) front cam and you can see the mark on the pulley in the paint.
IMG_9800.JPG


So:

1) Can I leave it like this if the #1 piston is at TDC or not? I have turned the engine over two times and felt no restriction other than compression. The engine did not hit anything hard. I would have expected the timing marks to be on top for both cams as you indicated but this is the way it was when I took it apart so I am still confused. If I turn the engine until the rear cam is on top then the front cam won't be on top, I don't think.

2) What is the number 5 etched in the pulley for in picture #4?

3) I have marked the belt at each pulley mark so wonder if I can just count the cogs on the original belt and duplicate the new belt and put it on in the same position without going further?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks

ballencd
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
711 Posts
I think you have one cam 180 off. The cams are the same size and should always rotate in sync, where the cam marks always come up to the cover reference marks together. So, not sure you can rotate the out of position cam while holding the other cam at and crank pulley stationary. You can try, and if you don't meet resistance, then rotate until it is at the cover ref mark. If you meet resistance, return the off cam back to 180 out, put the belt on and rotate the crank another full turn until it and the good cam get the ref marks again. The try and rotate the off cam until it aligns.

Past that, it may require some experimentation in crank rotation until you can get it back in alignment.

Worst case, you'll have to pull the head, rotate the cam and reinstall the head.

Am guessing the "5" and other numbers and marks are for manufacturing purposes--not relevant to timing.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
483 Posts
Actually, it looks to me like the engine is in time. The rear cam has the index mark, which is on a spoke, pointing down. The front cam gear has the cylinder 5 up, and the cylinder 1 mark pointing down. It looks to me like you are in time, but just 180 degrees out of having cyl 1 at TDC. If you rotate the crank clockwise one rotation, then the Cyl 1 TDC marks and rear cam mark should be in proper alignment.

Google "Honda J engine timing marks", and look at a couple of videos. This will help you to feel reassured that you are actually in time. Rotate carefully clockwise until Cyl 1 is aligned properly at 12:00, and the crankshaft key is at 12 o'clock. The rear cam "I" mark should also be at 12:00. Make sure that you are not a tooth off, and you should be good!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
I think I figured it out after watching multiple R+R videos.

The number "5" was significant but not in a good way. To be at TDC the front Cam needs to be on the mark with a "1" on it vs a "5". If the belt was already off all I needed to do was turn each shaft till the marks were in alignment and then put on the belt. Starting from the crank and going counterclockwise toward the tensioner. After the belt is on the crank needs to be turned several revolutions to make sure they stayed in alignment. It takes two revolutions of the crank to verify that it is not hitting anything inside the engine. At that point it can be put back together. I ran out of light and it started raining so I am not running yet but all I need to do it finish installing the accessory belt, put antifreeze back in and install the computer with a few odds and ends. I'll let you know how it goes tomorrow when I am done. Then I need to R+R the passenger axle. Looks like fun too. I think if I was starting another one it would only take a few hours to complete. This one has taken two day so far. : (

Thanks for the help on this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
STMech,
Your note came in just as I sent the last one out. You were correct and I was OK, I just didn't know it. When I got the key off the crank and got off I was worried. I did exactly what you said even thought I didn't get the info from you until after I had looked at a bunch of videos. Just had to find the right one. I appreciate the replies and hopefully I will be back running in the morning.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
711 Posts
Yep, I was in a hurry looked at the photo with the white mark to the bottom, not the other photo with the cast mark at the cover mark. Agree it's probably in time. Sorry for the alarm.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
711 Posts
ST--good point on the numbers--I've never paid much attention to the other markings other than main ticks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,756 Posts
Good luck on this
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
OK....so after several more hours it is back together and started with no noise. A win for me today. After a few minutes of warm up and a bit of slight revving I can hear a slight rumble if that is the right way to describe it. I am thinking it is the belt setting in and will go away. I would not know where to look for it anyway. I still need to get some antifreeze to top it up and let it burp but its not off the slab (or should I say sloped gravel pad) yet........

Next up is the passenger axle. The replacement is supposed to be a OEM from Rock Auto. The nut is a different size then the factory by about 1-2 mm. And it has a definite wobble when spinning it on or off the axle shaft. Looks to be poorer quality then the OEM and the bearing bolt-on plate is made from cast iron instead of the OEM aluminum. Time will again tell if it will work. I don't happen to have a 36 mm socket so I am off to get one and some antifreeze as when I pulled the water pump I lost about 2 quarts. I will burp it and see where we are on that.

Thanks for all the help. Here is the utube video that helped the most.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
806 Posts
Tough weekend to be looking on the forum for help, I'm sure most (like me) weren't on a computer all weekend with Thanksgiving...

Glad to see you got it sorted out. The damage from doing this wrong can be catastrophic so I was going to recommend calling and having it towed to a dealer or reputable shop to finish if you weren't 100% sure. It's cheaper to have them finish the job than have to rebuild the engine.

But alas, you figured it out... nice job!
 
1 - 20 of 31 Posts
Top