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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So Toyota has officially killed the V6 in the Highlander... thoughts? Personally, I don't think any turbo-4 sounds or feels as refined as a healthy V6 and the mileage benefit is for a very narrow use case in pure highway driving. Around town, getting 4,500 lbs up to speed requires boost, and a lot of it.

I do wonder if Toyota will keep the V6 in the long rumored "Grand Highlander", one that's actually big enough to compete with the Pilot unlike the CX-9 sized Highlander.


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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Ugh another V6 gem bites the dust following the Tundra iForce V8...
Lotus is still using a variation of it I believe in their new sports coupe... I think Toyota is going to follow ford down the "downsized and boosted" vs the traditional engine for each category. The GM turbo 2.7 in the Silverado seems to have the specs to power these big vehicles but IMO none of the 2.0Ts do.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I did just pick up on the fact that the Highlander will get a 2.4T, not a 2.0T... I think manufacturers are catching on (Hyundai/Kia and now Toyota) that slightly larger displacement turbo-4s provide adequate performance for larger vehicles and will hopefully be a little less stressed (meaning more reliable) since they will be worked harder under normal conditions.
 
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Inevitable. Only surprise is that it didn't go all hybrid. After all, it shares the platform with the Sierra, a hybrid only vehicle.
 

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So Toyota has officially killed the V6 in the Highlander... thoughts? Personally, I don't think any turbo-4 sounds or feels as refined as a healthy V6 and the mileage benefit is for a very narrow use case in pure highway driving. Around town, getting 4,500 lbs up to speed requires boost, and a lot of it.

I do wonder if Toyota will keep the V6 in the long rumored "Grand Highlander", one that's actually big enough to compete with the Pilot unlike the CX-9 sized Highlander.


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I'm very disappointed Toyota is ruining the Highlander and very glad I got my 2020 V6. Yes, the Highlander is smaller than my Gen 2 Pilot but it gets substantially better fuel mileage(like 5 mpg better on average) and it is such an excellent, smooth highway cruiser IMO compared to the Pilot. We also had a 2018 Hyundai Sante Fe 2.0T that was a nice vehicle to us, but there is a big difference in highway cruising performance in the Highlander even over that Hyundai. It was definitely perky but didn't have the highway power of a V6 and I think it actually go a tad worse fuel economy than the Highlander. We got rid of the SF before the engine self destructed.

All that said, I like the Pilot's relative simplicity, it is appealing. I have old "wheel" Ipods that seem to play better in the infotainment sand box of the Pilot's. I also like that the interface is tucked into the center console, out of sight. I like the fact there's no auto stop start, it uses a good ole fashioned key to start it. If wifey is shopping I like that I can sit in it and listen to the radio as long as I want without stupid idiot lights telling me to turn accessory power off to conserve the battery. I also like the very large door openings and the ease of ingress/egress-it's a little better than the Highlander's.

So why didn't I opt for another Pilot when trading off the Sante Fe? Toyota's chain driven 3.5V6 that had dual fuel rails and always runs on all 6 cylinders-period! That was the main criteria over a Gen 3 Earth Dreams V6 Pilot. Earth Dreams V6 is still belt driven, direct injection only, still has VCM AND auto stop start.

But the Pilot is getting a little long in the tooth and I'm wanted to replace it before the ever tightening emission and CAFE standards take away more of my choices. Maybe I'll go Ridgeline, 4Runner or Ford F series with the Coyote V8.
 

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I think their move to a 2.4T with D4S (direct and port injection) is a great move. With over 300 ft/lbs of torque most likely across a much broader RPM range, it should move the vehicle nicely, and it is mated to a decent 8 speed, not a CVT. Yes, less HP than the V6, but you have to rev the engine to get to it. I liked the Torque in my Ascent, didn't have to rev it to move well, but hated the CVT. It would also be much easier to work on the 4 cylinder than the V6. Sold the Ascent and got the wife a Rav4 Hybrid Limited, she loves it, and I am shocked at how much I like how their current Hybrids behave.

A friend of mine has a 21 Highlander Hybrid, and it moves pretty well, with solid mpg with 30 at the low, realistically a little higher than that. I would assume Toyota will "Prime" almost every model eventually, and that will be the one to get, with all that electric torque, and able to plug-in for daily commutes on all EV, but when you want to take a 600 mile trip somewhere you don't have to worry about stopping to plug-in, you'll just use the ICE. I am hoping they come out with that in a few years, as I need to get 300K out of my Pilot before I can consider a new vehicle, and I have not been thrilled with any of Hondas models the last 10 years.

I would expect Honda to move to 4 cylinder Turbo for their V6 at some point, hopefully they bump up the displacement instead of using the 2.0T. Kind of odd Honda is still producing V6 with timing belts, especially with an interference engine. Yes, they are smooth, but unless you are doing the work yourselves, that is extra cost every 6-7 years for most.
 
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I would rather lighten the car with aluminum and carbon fiber components here while keeping the steel frame and there than put kill the v6. Toyota engines are reliable, but their mpg is terrible. There are already recalls on the new Tundras because Toyota decided to twin turbo it and kill the v8 rather than lighten the car with aluminum. Carbon fiber components use water to make, but I'm sure it's labor intensive and then need to be baked in an autoclave.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Ford F series with the Coyote V8.
Don't the new Coyote's have a belt drive oil pump that involves removal of the timing cover to replace? GM did this with the .Duramax I6 as well, but the belt is on the back of the engine for NVH, so you have to remove the transmission to service it.

Belts (outside of accessory belts that are easily replaced) should be illegal in new engine designs!

I think their move to a 2.4T with D4S (direct and port injection) is a great move. With over 300 ft/lbs of torque most likely across a much broader RPM range, it should move the vehicle nicely, and it is mated to a decent 8 speed, not a CVT. Yes, less HP than the V6, but you have to rev the engine to get to it. I liked the Torque in my Ascent, didn't have to rev it to move well, but hated the CVT. It would also be much easier to work on the 4 cylinder than the V6. Sold the Ascent and got the wife a Rav4 Hybrid Limited, she loves it, and I am shocked at how much I like how their current Hybrids behave.

A friend of mine has a 21 Highlander Hybrid, and it moves pretty well, with solid mpg with 30 at the low, realistically a little higher than that. I would assume Toyota will "Prime" almost every model eventually, and that will be the one to get, with all that electric torque, and able to plug-in for daily commutes on all EV, but when you want to take a 600 mile trip somewhere you don't have to worry about stopping to plug-in, you'll just use the ICE. I am hoping they come out with that in a few years, as I need to get 300K out of my Pilot before I can consider a new vehicle, and I have not been thrilled with any of Hondas models the last 10 years.

I would expect Honda to move to 4 cylinder Turbo for their V6 at some point, hopefully they bump up the displacement instead of using the 2.0T. Kind of odd Honda is still producing V6 with timing belts, especially with an interference engine. Yes, they are smooth, but unless you are doing the work yourselves, that is extra cost every 6-7 years for most.
I do expect a Prime version at some point, I think the people in this size vehicle would love something that can go 50-60 miles on EV with the gas engine to provide unlimited range.

Like you said, I think Honda will move to a combination of turbo-4 and hybrid powertrains at some point and I think that all but killed them developing a new V6. The J series is competitive in power, refinement and efficiency so they can just keep massaging it until they kill it off.

I would rather lighten the car with aluminum and carbon fiber components here while keeping the steel frame and there than put kill the v6. Toyota engines are reliable, but their mpg is terrible. There are already recalls on the new Tundras because Toyota decided to twin turbo it and kill the v8 rather than lighten the car with aluminum. Carbon fiber components use water to make, but I'm sure it's labor intensive and then need to be baked in an autoclave.
I'm assuming mass produced large carbon fiber parts are very difficult to make. It's pretty easy to stamp steel or aluminum in huge quantities but that is not the case with carbon fiber. I do agree though, I'd love to see a focus on lightening vehicles so we can get these tanks that cause more wear and tear and worse efficiency off the road. EV's are some of the worst offenders in this regard.
 
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Don't the new Coyote's have a belt drive oil pump that involves removal of the timing cover to replace? GM did this with the .Duramax I6 as well, but the belt is on the back of the engine for NVH, so you have to remove the transmission to service it.

Belts (outside of accessory belts that are easily replaced) should be illegal in new engine designs!



I do expect a Prime version at some point, I think the people in this size vehicle would love something that can go 50-60 miles on EV with the gas engine to provide unlimited range.

Like you said, I think Honda will move to a combination of turbo-4 and hybrid powertrains at some point and I think that all but killed them developing a new V6. The J series is competitive in power, refinement and efficiency so they can just keep massaging it until they kill it off.



I'm assuming mass produced large carbon fiber parts are very difficult to make. It's pretty easy to stamp steel or aluminum in huge quantities but that is not the case with carbon fiber. I do agree though, I'd love to see a focus on lightening vehicles so we can get these tanks that cause more wear and tear and worse efficiency off the road. EV's are some of the worst offenders in this regard.
Yikes I'll have to dig further into the Coyote V8. I may not be able to escape a future turbocharged 4 or 6 cylinder engine.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Properly done a turbo 4 can be remarkably good. As long as it drives nicely not sure I’d care a whole lot.
No doubt. The performance can be quite good, sometimes superior to a V6. But when these downsized turbo engines are worked hard (like they tend to be in heavier vehicles getting the mass moving) they really don't offer better mileage. On the highway, out of boost is where they really shine for mileage and around town, lots of stop and go is where their torque really shines.

One of my biggest hangups is the NVH and sound. I just don't find them to be as pleasing to listen to and work hard as an enthusiast. And not all 4 cylinders are created equal - IMO Honda still has the smoothest and sweetest-sounding 4 cylinders. Nissan, Toyota, GM, Hyundai/Kia, Subaru (I know, boxer) all sound like tractor engines to my ear. My mom's GLC300 sounded like a diesel at idle. My grandmom's X1 sounds pretty good and the VAG 2.0T seems to sound pretty good, but they still aren't as sweet as a J35 or VQ35.
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Imagine if the 2023 Pilot had a slightly detuned version of the 3.0L V6 turbo motor from the Acura MDX Type S, with an output of close to 350 hp and 350 lb-ft.
I would love for Honda to do something like that. Unfortunately I think the Type S should have had another 50 or more horsepower and torque from the start and a Pilot that is competing with the Explorer ST needs to be where the current Type S is.

I love that Honda took the jump with the Type S, but IMO they didn't jump as far as they needed to. MDX and TLX.
 

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No doubt. The performance can be quite good, sometimes superior to a V6. But when these downsized turbo engines are worked hard (like they tend to be in heavier vehicles getting the mass moving) they really don't offer better mileage. On the highway, out of boost is where they really shine for mileage and around town, lots of stop and go is where their torque really shines.

One of my biggest hangups is the NVH and sound. I just don't find them to be as pleasing to listen to and work hard as an enthusiast. And not all 4 cylinders are created equal - IMO Honda still has the smoothest and sweetest-sounding 4 cylinders. Nissan, Toyota, GM, Hyundai/Kia, Subaru (I know, boxer) all sound like tractor engines to my ear. My mom's GLC300 sounded like a diesel at idle. My grandmom's X1 sounds pretty good and the VAG 2.0T seems to sound pretty good, but they still aren't as sweet as a J35 or VQ35.
Yep - you're right about that. Really fuel economy is a combination of engine efficiency combined with horsepower required / used. The most efficient engine on the planet will but a ton of fuel if it's pushing an aerodynamic brick through an inefficient transmission. The 4 cylinder sound sure isn't as pleasing either.

I'm just saying if they get it right I'm not fundamentally opposed. The other "plus" to the 4 cylinders in these larger cars is that there can be TONS of space to work on them. If they didn't put a huge engine cover on top of my Q5 engine you'd think it shared an engine with a go kart. I do wish my Q5 idled smoother and most of them do... mine is just rougher than it should be IMHO... of course dealer says "completely normal" yet every other one I've driven idles perfectly smooth. I may just need to clean the intake valves.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Yep - you're right about that. Really fuel economy is a combination of engine efficiency combined with horsepower required / used. The most efficient engine on the planet will but a ton of fuel if it's pushing an aerodynamic brick through an inefficient transmission. The 4 cylinder sound sure isn't as pleasing either.

I'm just saying if they get it right I'm not fundamentally opposed. The other "plus" to the 4 cylinders in these larger cars is that there can be TONS of space to work on them. If they didn't put a huge engine cover on top of my Q5 engine you'd think it shared an engine with a go kart. I do wish my Q5 idled smoother and most of them do... mine is just rougher than it should be IMHO... of course dealer says "completely normal" yet every other one I've driven idles perfectly smooth. I may just need to clean the intake valves.
That is strange, usually the VAG 2.0T is a pretty smooth operator. IMO nothing matches the K20/K24 for smoothness and sound (except maybe a B18 or H22) but I've been in multiple Audi and VW products with the 2.0T and always been impressed.

My mom's GLC was very smooth and had that old school wallop of torque but it fell off a cliff at the top end and sounded like a diesel tractor at idle with the injectors and whatever other noises.
 
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