@Nail Grease You Sir, seem to have tried out different things to tame these 6 Spd transmissions. I would love to hear your thoughts on this.
2017 Honda Pilot EX-L 6 Speed AWD 'Transmission System Error'
I have a 2017 Honda Pilot EX-L 6 Speed AWD which started showing a 'Transmission System Problem' while running at highway speeds. Dealer identified P0741 code even though the warning message goes off when the vehicle is turned off. Dealer is recommending a Transmission change and Honda is pitching in with some $ and my net out of pocket will be $6500. Even when the error message is displayed, the vehicle drives/shifts just fine and there is no judder so far.
Based on my understanding, following are my options and I would be truly grateful if you guys can share your thoughts about what is the best path forward for me:
What is the logical thing to do here? Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
Based on my understanding, following are my options and I would be truly grateful if you guys can share your thoughts about what is the best path forward for me:
- Replace the transmission as per Honda/Dealer recommendation
- Trade it in and get rid of the headache (CarMax online quote shows $25k for the vehicle)
- Do 3X drain, add coolant, and fit SVCM and keep driving (I saw a lot of posts about this Error message but I haven't come across any situation where the vehicle became inoperable due to this.)
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We purchased a 2018 EX-L in 2020, with 58k miles. Shortly after purchase, we experienced the same warning flags that you have described. On a long out-of-town drive, I noticed that the tachometer would show a wavering needle when we were cruising on the freeway at 65 mph. Long story short, the torque converter lockup clutch on the 6 speeds seems to fail after 50k or 60k or 70k miles. We had the TC replaced under warranty. I had an auxiliary ATF cooler installed, and I installed the S-VCM chip to disable the Honda VCM system.I have a 2017 Honda Pilot EX-L 6 Speed AWD which started showing a 'Transmission System Problem' while running at highway speeds. Dealer identified P0741 code even though the warning message goes off when the vehicle is turned off. Dealer is recommending a Transmission change and Honda is pitching in with some $ and my net out of pocket will be $6500. Even when the error message is displayed, the vehicle drives/shifts just fine and there is no judder so far.
Based on my understanding, following are my options and I would be truly grateful if you guys can share your thoughts about what is the best path forward for me:
What is the logical thing to do here? Thank you for sharing your thoughts!
- Replace the transmission as per Honda/Dealer recommendation
- Trade it in and get rid of the headache (CarMax online quote shows $25k for the vehicle)
- Do 3X drain, add coolant, and fit SVCM and keep driving (I saw a lot of posts about this Error message but I haven't come across any situation where the vehicle became inoperable due to this.)
I assume that you do not have powertrain warranty coverage on your Pilot. You could talk to your dealer and request that Honda help in the repair costs for your transmission. There are folks here on the forum that have had success with this approach. Honda does not pay the whole bill, but some folks have had 50% or more of the cost paid by Honda. Worth a try.
If you are getting no joy from Honda, then you could flush out your ATF and install the S-VCM chip, and hope that the drive train stabilizes and continues to work ok. ATF flush on a Honda means that you drain the ATF, (about 3 1/2 quarts come out), and then you refill with the same amount of new ATF. Do this procedure 3 times with a days drive in between. Do NOT go to a tranny shop and have a power flush!
I would try to get Honda to help out with the repair cost. If you have no luck with this, do the "soft flush" described above, disable VCM, and hope for the best.
Thank you for your reply! Any idea how much a mechanic will charge for this 3X drain/fill? I am not a DIY guy. I looked at SVCM installation videos, that seems doable for me.We purchased a 2018 EX-L in 2020, with 58k miles. Shortly after purchase, we experienced the same warning flags that you have described. On a long out-of-town drive, I noticed that the tachometer would show a wavering needle when we were cruising on the freeway at 65 mph. Long story short, the torque converter lockup clutch on the 6 speeds seems to fail after 50k or 60k or 70k miles. We had the TC replaced under warranty. I had an auxiliary ATF cooler installed, and I installed the S-VCM chip to disable the Honda VCM system.
I assume that you do not have powertrain warranty coverage on your Pilot. You could talk to your dealer and request that Honda help in the repair costs for your transmission. There are folks here on the forum that have had success with this approach. Honda does not pay the whole bill, but some folks have had 50% or more of the cost paid by Honda. Worth a try.
If you are getting no joy from Honda, then you could flush out your ATF and install the S-VCM chip, and hope that the drive train stabilizes and continues to work ok. ATF flush on a Honda means that you drain the ATF, (about 3 1/2 quarts come out), and then you refill with the same amount of new ATF. Do this procedure 3 times with a days drive in between. Do NOT go to a tranny shop and have a power flush!
I would try to get Honda to help out with the repair cost. If you have no luck with this, do the "soft flush" described above, disable VCM, and hope for the best.
Hello RCK,
First thing I’d do is get an OBD II scanner to see the code(s) for myself. I don’t like making big decisions without proving to myself.
A P0741 certainly can be internal failure, but it bothers me that you say it’s still shifting fine.
I have some questions first please…
What is the current mileage?
Is your transmission fluid clean, with a pink/red clear opacity or brown/black? Swipe some on a white cloth and post photo here please.
When driving with the cruise control locked on, is the rpm gauge fluttering? It will look like this.
First thing I’d do is get an OBD II scanner to see the code(s) for myself. I don’t like making big decisions without proving to myself.
A P0741 certainly can be internal failure, but it bothers me that you say it’s still shifting fine.
I have some questions first please…
What is the current mileage?
Is your transmission fluid clean, with a pink/red clear opacity or brown/black? Swipe some on a white cloth and post photo here please.
When driving with the cruise control locked on, is the rpm gauge fluttering? It will look like this.
Thanks for your reply!Hello RCK,
First thing I’d do is get an OBD II scanner to see the code(s) for myself. I don’t like making big decisions without proving to myself.
A P0741 certainly can be internal failure, but it bothers me that you say it’s still shifting fine.
I have some questions first please…
What is the current mileage?
Is your transmission fluid clean, with a pink/red clear opacity or brown/black? Swipe some on a white cloth and post photo here please.
When driving with the cruise control locked on, is the rpm gauge fluttering? It will look like this.
Current mileage is around 42000. As part of the Dealer diagnosis, they were required to drain the fluid and look for metal shavings. I was told that the fluid looked fine and there were no shavings. And since they went through the diagnosis twice, the ATF was drained and filled twice in last 1.5 months. And I have never observed any judder or flutter at any point.
Fluttering rpm gauge is the sign of a torque converter clutch lock issue. Vibrations from an active VCM are known to cause this. Has the service department ever performed the software update for the transmission to try to prevent this? As referenced by @STMech, Disabling the VCM is the permanent solution to prevent torque converter damage caused by VCM. This was the common problem with the 6-speed. If caught early enough, and doing multiple separate drain and fills, keeping the ATF fresh and clean (cool, adding an atf cooler), you could possibly save the transmission. I have no reason to believe any 6-speed 3rd gen Pilot is immune. If your not into taking control by doing these suggestions, I’d sell it. I would not own any Honda VCM engine without out a disabling device installed. Lots of YouTube videos on this easy installation.Thanks for your reply!
Current mileage is around 42000. As part of the Dealer diagnosis, they were required to drain the fluid and look for metal shavings. I was told that the fluid looked fine and there were no shavings. And since they went through the diagnosis twice, the ATF was drained and filled twice in last 1.5 months. And I have never observed any judder or flutter at any point.
Yes you are over the years on powertrain warranty but 18,000 under the mileage. I would definitely contact Honda Corporate with the details especially since dealer has already done fluid changes and working through the software updates etc. One member I think got the transmission done for about $500 iirc with them involved.
I presume you don't have HondaCare or other extended warranty to cover it.
If they work it out, get it fixed, do the VCM disable and continue on. The external cooler will keep fluid cooler. Your code is for a problem though not an overheat. If they don't help do the VCM disable, change the fluid 3x, hope for the best or get rid of it. Get an OBD2 code reader like VeePeak and OBD Fusion App or other so you can check and clear codes as well as monitor temperatures.
If you think you can handle the VCM disable (you can, it's not hard) you can also tackle the fluid changes (you can, it's not hard). Honda made it quite easy to change with a 3/8" ratchet/breaker bar and drain pan. Lots of pictures and instructions here and YouTube. Long funnel afterward to refill. Fluid choice would be on you. If out of warranty I would probably do VML for cost and being synthetic. While trying to get Honda to cover I would stick with factory DW-1 in case they feel like doing an analysis.
File report with NHTSA and IIHS to document issues, may lead to recall, class action or reimbursement. If I had to spend $6500 on a 42000 mile transmission I might panic from seeing the transmission warning and cost estimate.
I presume you don't have HondaCare or other extended warranty to cover it.
If they work it out, get it fixed, do the VCM disable and continue on. The external cooler will keep fluid cooler. Your code is for a problem though not an overheat. If they don't help do the VCM disable, change the fluid 3x, hope for the best or get rid of it. Get an OBD2 code reader like VeePeak and OBD Fusion App or other so you can check and clear codes as well as monitor temperatures.
If you think you can handle the VCM disable (you can, it's not hard) you can also tackle the fluid changes (you can, it's not hard). Honda made it quite easy to change with a 3/8" ratchet/breaker bar and drain pan. Lots of pictures and instructions here and YouTube. Long funnel afterward to refill. Fluid choice would be on you. If out of warranty I would probably do VML for cost and being synthetic. While trying to get Honda to cover I would stick with factory DW-1 in case they feel like doing an analysis.
File report with NHTSA and IIHS to document issues, may lead to recall, class action or reimbursement. If I had to spend $6500 on a 42000 mile transmission I might panic from seeing the transmission warning and cost estimate.
$6,500 on your wallet is a huge amount, Honda may only pay $2,000 into this if even. I would choose option 2, and buy a different car. Hope you find a good solution.
Thank you! I have placed an order for the S-VCM. Planning to install once I get it. Can I probe a little bit more - is it fair to assume that the vehicle is in decent mechanical shape even though the error message popped up couple of times? Meaning, once I install the S-VCM and stay on top of the ATF, I may possibly get away without an Transmission replacement? Also, have you come across anyone who actually had their Transmission/TCC failed after they got the error?Fluttering rpm gauge is the sign of a torque converter clutch lock issue. Vibrations from an active VCM are known to cause this. Has the service department ever performed the software update for the transmission to try to prevent this? As referenced by @STMech, Disabling the VCM is the permanent solution to prevent torque converter damage caused by VCM. This was the common problem with the 6-speed. If caught early enough, and doing multiple separate drain and fills, keeping the ATF fresh and clean (cool, adding an atf cooler), you could possibly save the transmission. I have no reason to believe any 6-speed 3rd gen Pilot is immune. If your not into taking control by doing these suggestions, I’d sell it. I would not own any Honda VCM engine without out a disabling device installed. Lots of YouTube videos on this easy installation.
I see that there are people who just keep driving the vehicle with the code without any actual driving issues.
Thanks for your reply! I am out of warranty and Honda is just throwing in $2000 and my net out of pocket will be $6500. I filed the report with NHTSA, didn't know about IIHS. Just looked up but didn't find a way to report the issue. Is there any link that you can provide?Yes you are over the years on powertrain warranty but 18,000 under the mileage. I would definitely contact Honda Corporate with the details especially since dealer has already done fluid changes and working through the software updates etc. One member I think got the transmission done for about $500 iirc with them involved.
I presume you don't have HondaCare or other extended warranty to cover it.
If they work it out, get it fixed, do the VCM disable and continue on. The external cooler will keep fluid cooler. Your code is for a problem though not an overheat. If they don't help do the VCM disable, change the fluid 3x, hope for the best or get rid of it. Get an OBD2 code reader like VeePeak and OBD Fusion App or other so you can check and clear codes as well as monitor temperatures.
If you think you can handle the VCM disable (you can, it's not hard) you can also tackle the fluid changes (you can, it's not hard). Honda made it quite easy to change with a 3/8" ratchet/breaker bar and drain pan. Lots of pictures and instructions here and YouTube. Long funnel afterward to refill. Fluid choice would be on you. If out of warranty I would probably do VML for cost and being synthetic. While trying to get Honda to cover I would stick with factory DW-1 in case they feel like doing an analysis.
File report with NHTSA and IIHS to document issues, may lead to recall, class action or reimbursement. If I had to spend $6500 on a 42000 mile transmission I might panic from seeing the transmission warning and cost estimate.
Thank you!
I believe that there are 3 things that can prolong the life of the transmission. Each will increase the chance of a better outcome.Thank you! I have placed an order for the S-VCM. Planning to install once I get it. Can I probe a little bit more - is it fair to assume that the vehicle is in decent mechanical shape even though the error message popped up couple of times? Meaning, once I install the S-VCM and stay on top of the ATF, I may possibly get away without an Transmission replacement? Also, have you come across anyone who actually had their Transmission/TCC failed after they got the error?
I see that there are people who just keep driving the vehicle with the code without any actual driving issues.
- Disable the VCM
- Make the switch to full synthetic Valvoline MaxLife ATF
- Add a transmission cooler
The P0741 code is set when the driveline computer sees at least a 200 rpm slip in the torque converter at lockup. This means that it’s a torque converter problem, not a gear shifting problem. The transmission could function fine, except for the TC slipping during cruise. - - at least for a while.Thank you! I have placed an order for the S-VCM. Planning to install once I get it. Can I probe a little bit more - is it fair to assume that the vehicle is in decent mechanical shape even though the error message popped up couple of times? Meaning, once I install the S-VCM and stay on top of the ATF, I may possibly get away without an Transmission replacement? Also, have you come across anyone who actually had their Transmission/TCC failed after they got the error?
I see that there are people who just keep driving the vehicle with the code without any actual driving issues.
At cruise, the TC clutch is supposed to lock up and not slip. If the TC clutch keeps slipping, it wears out and loads up the fluid with black carbon fiber material. And then the rest of the transmission degrades.
VCM causes a lot of vibration. In order to dampen this, Honda programmed deliberate slip into the 6 speed TC clutch. By a strange coincidence, the 6 speed TC clutches seem to die an early death, and then take the whole transmission along. That’s why disabling VCM may prolong the life of your 6 speed TC. If you disable VCM, you get rid of the programmed clutch slip, and with any luck, if the clutch is not too badly worn, perhaps P0741 goes away.
If your Pilot is setting P0741, torque converter replacement is the correct course of action. If you can get Honda to cover most of the cost, then do it. If it’s going to cost you a bundle, why not try S-VCM and fresh fluid for a while before you break the bank.
Thank you! Ordered an SVCM. Planning to give it a try before any major expense.The P0741 code is set when the driveline computer sees at least a 200 rpm slip in the torque converter at lockup. This means that it’s a torque converter problem, not a gear shifting problem. The transmission could function fine, except for the TC slipping during cruise. - - at least for a while.
At cruise, the TC clutch is supposed to lock up and not slip. If the TC clutch keeps slipping, it wears out and loads up the fluid with black carbon fiber material. And then the rest of the transmission degrades.
VCM causes a lot of vibration. In order to dampen this, Honda programmed deliberate slip into the 6 speed TC clutch. By a strange coincidence, the 6 speed TC clutches seem to die an early death, and then take the whole transmission along. That’s why disabling VCM may prolong the life of your 6 speed TC. If you disable VCM, you get rid of the programmed clutch slip, and with any luck, if the clutch is not too badly worn, perhaps P0741 goes away.
If your Pilot is setting P0741, torque converter replacement is the correct course of action. If you can get Honda to cover most of the cost, then do it. If it’s going to cost you a bundle, why not try S-VCM and fresh fluid for a while before you break the bank.
VCMTuner II is USA made. So that is another option.
Can I ask you a follow up question please? If Torque Converter replacement is the right remedy, why is recommendig whole Transmission replacement?If your Pilot is setting P0741, torque converter replacement is the correct course of action. If you can get Honda to cover most of the cost, then do it. If it’s going to cost you a bundle, why not try S-VCM and fresh fluid for a while before you break the bank.
Note: I guess I forgot to mention one thing, this Error message 'Transmission System Problem' is not a permanent one. It comes up at highway speeds and it goes away when the vehicle is turned off/on. It never comes up at lower speeds.
Most dealers and mechanics are the type that do NOT really diagnose anything. They usually throw parts at it and hope they stick. So it's easy for them to say "replace transmission".
Since another transmission comes with a new TC, it solves the issue for a higher price. Others have replaced just the TC successfully to solve P0741.Can I ask you a follow up question please? If Torque Converter replacement is the right remedy, why is recommendig whole Transmission replacement?
Other threads had that just TC's were not available all the time, though should be if you get the transmission anyway. When Honda was covering the whole thing or most of, it also helped to eliminate a possible "come back" return trip from other potential damage that might have occurred for added expense of doing it a second time.
The torque converter seems to be the weakest link here. TC lockup clutch slip, if caught early and replaced, should leave the transmission itself intact.Can I ask you a follow up question please? If Torque Converter replacement is the right remedy, why is recommendig whole Transmission replacement?
Note: I guess I forgot to mention one thing, this Error message 'Transmission System Problem' is not a permanent one. It comes up at highway speeds and it goes away when the vehicle is turned off/on. It never comes up at lower speeds.
TC slip, ignored and allowed to completely fail, will result in TC clutch material contaminating the ATF. The uncontrolled slip will also overheat and burn the ATF. Now we have garbage, burned ATF that is damaging the gear shifting circuits of the transmission. If you keep ignoring the dashboard transmission warnings, this is where your Pilot is going.
If you don’t want the expense of a TC replacement, there are 3 things you can do to try to avoid it. Disable VCM, clean up the fluid with 3 drain and fills, and install an ATF auxiliary cooler. Nail Grease is a fan of Valvoline Maxlife ATF, instead of the Honda DW 1. He’s probably right.
If your TC clutch is too far gone, the cheap fixes won’t work, and you need a new TC, possibly a new transmission as well.
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