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I kid you not. 118,000 miles. I’m in shock still. This just doesn’t happen in Honda’s, right?

Regular maintenance but tbh not anything 100k+. No timing belt change. Oil changes at a local quick change place I’ve used for a long time. I always verbally reminded them about 0W-20 synthetic.

Heard ticking in the engine. Check engine light came on blinking on the highway. Pulled over and shut off the engine. Oil was down about 3/4 qt. Started it again and check engine light was off. Drove again and after a few minutes all the dash lights came on cycling through. Lost power and it felt like it was down a cylinder. At this point I’m thinking coils and plugs, valve adjustment and O2 sensors, possibly.

Limp to a parking lot. Towed it in and the dealer said metal in the oil pan. Engine is shot. They estimate $16,000 for new Honda engine and $11,000 for salvage engine installed.

Dealer said they would need to put a bunch of time into it to diagnose. I asked about the timing belt not being done yet and he didn’t think that was it. Time for a new vehicle. Not good.
 

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Sorry to read this. Did the quick changer use proper Honda oil filters with bypass valve?
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This seems like oil starvation. It will take a full tear-down to identify the source of the metal fragments, but I would bet on rings. Quick changers don’t give the super hot engine internals a chance to cool down to ambient (room) temperature before refilling with cold oil. That causes thermal shock, which some brittle metals (rings) don’t cope well with.
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That’s why I do my own oil changes, and always let the engine cool off at least one hour while letting every last drop of old oil drip 💧 out into the pan, then pre-fill the new filter also to prevent oil starvation on the first start.
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You may have grounds for legal recourse against the quick changer if you can prove they did the job wrongly and/or used the wrong oil and/or filter.
 

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I am interested in what they find. I would assume that the belt failed since you did regular maintenance on the vehicle. Did you verify that the place changing the oil actually changed it? A lot of places have been caught saying they changed the oil without actually changing. What were your oil change intervals? Were they using the right weight? I know you told them 0W20 but did you verify it was actually used? I’m just in shock about this.


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Well, it wouldn't be the first time a quick change place destroyed an engine. The crazy thing is, the local Jiffy Lube charges $75 for a 0W20 full-synthetic oil change versus $49.95 at my Honda dealer. I only use the dealer for my vehicles, but I have a company vehicle which also takes 0W20 and we have a fleet account, so I have to take it to Jiffy Lube - can only go to the dealer for warranty stuff. I watch them every time, and they don't have 0W20 in the bulk tanks so they actually pour quart bottles.
 

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"Quick changers don’t give the super hot engine internals a chance to cool down to ambient (room) temperature before refilling with cold oil. That causes thermal shock, which some brittle metals (rings) don’t cope well with."

Sleepwalker, you sound like you do work and maintenance on your own vehicles and are somewhat knowledgeable. I have to tell you though, I have been working on cars for over 50 years and have NEVER heard that piston rings or other "brittle" metal can be damaged by adding oil too soon during an oil change!!!! It takes well more than an hour for an internal engine to cool down to ambient (room) temperature! Can you just picture all of the cars waiting for an oil change for the car in front to cool off enough to add oil in your description?

There are numerous oil filters better than Honda filters, and an owner does not have to use a Honda filter to maintain warranty or to expect long engine life. The non Honda filters do have to meet Honda specifications and many of them do so and even exceed those specifications. Just like engine oil, there are many that meet or exceed Honda specification. There have been a few incidents with Ford I believe where aftermarket oil filters where used and caused problems, but they did not meet Ford specifications.

Do you believe that dealerships, oil change facilities, auto repair shops, or even DIY people wait for the engine to cool to ambient temperature? Come on, we all know they work as fast as they can and have never heard of "brittle" rings and thermal shock! If this was in fact happening, why don't we hear about substantial engine damages caused by such every day?

I don't know if you have ever heard of a forum named "Bob Is The Oil Guy", but I would suggest you check it out. Very interesting discussion regarding almost anything car related from oil, filters, maintenance, and other topics. I am going to post your statement and see if any of those over there have ever heard of such a thing.

After it is turned off, how long does it take for an engine to cool down?

















5 Answers
Loring Chien
Loring Chien
, Engineer, been taking care of cars for 46 years
Answered Apr 10 2018 · Author has 29.7k answers and 52.6m answer views


Theoretically forever. The heat loss will be proportional to the difference between the engine and the surrounding environment. As the engine cools to nearly the air temperature around it, the heat loss will become very small and hence takes hours to tail off to with the last couple of degrees. At some point you can’t feel the difference but it will be warmer than the environment for a long time to very sensitive instruments.
Practically speaking, a engine is a large mass of iron and steel. Once you shut it off the circulatory coolant and forced air means of cooling are lost. It will take a at least a couple of hours to cool of to be able to be worked on, and can be many hours before you can appreciably feel it is cold.

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We're getting sidetracked here. Engines do rarely fail prematurely and catastrophically for a variety of reasons that have nothing to do with where you get your oil changed.

What's needed now is to know what failed. This is basic troubleshooting stuff here - does the engine turn over, what noises does it make when it does, does it run at all, do the camshafts turn in sync with the crank, are all the plugs in place, what is the compression, is the oil filter full of meta, etc. etc. etc.???? Yes, it might take an hour or three of tech time to figure it out, but it money well spent as it will then determine what the proper course of action is with respect to repair, replace, get another car, etc. You certainly don't want to start down the road of engine replacement just because one guy says the "engine is shot" without knowing what is "shot".

I'd get the car out of the dealer's hands and find a good independent mechanic in the area with good references and that has enough Honda knowledge that they could source and replace the engine if it comes to that. Pay them the couple hours to do decent diagnostics and identify what failed. If you do need to totally replace the engine, you should be able to get a decent salvage engine from a wreck for something around $2K and get it installed for about the same. It's done all the time but the dealers just don't do this kind of work, at least not at a reasonable price.

Once you do know what failed, you might approach Honda about a goodwill warranty repair. If the car has decent service records and it failed due to a defective major engine part, there is a good chance Honda would step in and cover at least part of the repair as you're still under calendar time for the factory warranty and the mileage, while well over the warranty limit, is still in the range where a serious engine failure is very rare.

You could just walk away. Sell the car for salvage value and get a new one. I suspect the salvage value would be about $5-6K less than the car would sell for if it has a good engine.

- Mark
 

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Sorry about your engine. Do not EVER go to jiffy or quick change place. Not ever!! They use the cheapest crap they can get. You can't make money on oil changes unless you use garbage. My brother is a master tech, he told me never go there!! Go to Honda or do it yourself. I always do mine. I know it's done right and I'm not stripping my bolt lol.
 

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I’ve taken my car to a quick change place but I bring my own oil and filter. I’ve watched to make sure they use my oil. They do a really great job and I trust these guys a lot. I know tons of people who go to Jiffy lube and their cars still run forever.

I don’t think you did anything wrong I think Honda messed up on this car. Reach out to them and have service records showing that everything you were supposed to have done was completed. If they care at all about their brand image they’ll at least help cover the cost of the repair.
 

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I’ve taken my car to a quick change place but I bring my own oil and filter. I’ve watched to make sure they use my oil. They do a really great job and I trust these guys a lot. I know tons of people who go to Jiffy lube and their cars still run forever.

I don’t think you did anything wrong I think Honda messed up on this car. Reach out to them and have service records showing that everything you were supposed to have done was completed. If they care at all about their brand image they’ll at least help cover the cost of the repair.
I was with you until you got to “I think Honda messed up on this car.” How? The OP said his “...oil changes at a local quick change place I’ve used for a long time” - was that at Honda? How does Honda become responsible for a local quick change place that’s been servicing this vehicle for a LONG TIME? I think we are often too quick to blame the manufacturer. I know it’s more expensive, but for me personally, if I purchased the vehicle new, I continue service of the vehicle at the dealership even after all warranties have expired. That way I can blame the dealership or the manufacturer if unexpected big mishaps occur.


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Sorry about your engine. Do not EVER go to jiffy or quick change place. Not ever!! They use the cheapest crap they can get. You can't make money on oil changes unless you use garbage. My brother is a master tech, he told me never go there!! Go to Honda or do it yourself. I always do mine. I know it's done right and I'm not stripping my bolt lol.

There are Valvoline, Mobil, and Castrol instant oil change facilities all around here. I am sure they are not using the cheapest crap they can get when their name is on the business. You can also get the proper oil from Jiffy, Take 5, or the other chains I am sure as they usually have a graded service such as good, better, best with different oils included in each. Some places will advertise a low oil change special in the hopes of getting you in and then try to up sell you on other items you may need or repairs you might need. Dealers do the same thing.

Yes, there are horror stories about some of the instant oil change places regarding what was or wasn't done, or what or wasn't used, or who was or wasn't qualified to even be looking under the hood yet alone doing work on the car. You know what though, there are similar horror stories about dealerships also!

As a consumer if you can not change your own oil, know what to ask for and confirm everything was done as it was supposed to be. Have the receipt marked with what oil and filter was used, etc.
 

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I was with you until you got to “I think Honda messed up on this car.” How? The OP said his “...oil changes at a local quick change place I’ve used for a long time” - was that at Honda? How does Honda become responsible for a local quick change place that’s been servicing this vehicle for a LONG TIME? I think we are often too quick to blame the manufacturer. I know it’s more expensive, but for me personally, if I purchased the vehicle new, I continue service of the vehicle at the dealership even after all warranties have expired. That way I can blame the dealership or the manufacturer if unexpected big mishaps occur.


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How? Isn't it entirely possible that the JiffyLube or whatever the name was, properly did oil changes the entire time the OP took the car to them? You cannot tell me that by taking my car to be properly maintained by a non dealer releases the manufacturer from being responsible. With the information I know, that proper oil changes were done, there is now way the very reliable Honda V6 engine would fail that early...unless it was defective (or something like that). Until the engine is taken apart, nobody can know what caused the failure, but I certainly would be gathering proof that I had my vehicle maintained and reaching out to Honda.

For me, I only go to dealers for recalls. I think my car is in better mechanical shape than a dealer maintained car because I can actually afford to fix things when they break.

EDIT: I just reread the first post. OP mentioned the oil was only 3/4 quart low and that the shop mentioned there were metal in the oil pan. I fail to see how manufacturer defect is not the possible culprit.
 

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How? Isn't it entirely possible that the JiffyLube or whatever the name was, properly did oil changes the entire time the OP took the car to them? You cannot tell me that by taking my car to be properly maintained by a non dealer releases the manufacturer from being responsible. With the information I know, that proper oil changes were done, there is now way the very reliable Honda V6 engine would fail that early...unless it was defective (or something like that). Until the engine is taken apart, nobody can know what caused the failure, but I certainly would be gathering proof that I had my vehicle maintained and reaching out to Honda.

For me, I only go to dealers for recalls. I think my car is in better mechanical shape than a dealer maintained car because I can actually afford to fix things when they break.

EDIT: I just reread the first post. OP mentioned the oil was only 3/4 quart low and that the shop mentioned there were metal in the oil pan. I fail to see how manufacturer defect is not the possible culprit.
That exactly is my point! Until the engine is taken apart, nobody including you can know what caused the failure so why blame Honda for what you don’t know? A vehicle that’s already clocked 118,000 miles didn’t get there by chance! C’mon - this is not at 1,800 miles or 18,000 miles.

I do hope we are not mixing up the shop where the quick oil changes has been done with the dealership. I think if I interpret what the OP wrote, it was the dealer that detected metal in the oil pan. Whatever the case, it is way too soon for you to blame the manufacturer.


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That exactly is my point! Until the engine is taken apart, nobody including you can know what caused the failure so why blame Honda for what you don’t know? A vehicle that’s already clocked 118,000 miles didn’t get there by chance! C’mon - this is not at 1,800 miles or 18,000 miles.

I do hope we are not mixing up the shop where the quick oil changes has been done with the dealership. I think if I interpret what the OP wrote, it was the dealer that detected metal in the oil pan. Whatever the case, it is way too soon for you to blame the manufacturer.


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I guess we have different ideas...I would blame Honda unless something comes up that would show it wasn't the manufacturer's fault. 118,000 miles is not a lot for those engines. I am assuming it was the dealer that detected metal in the oil pan. $16,000 for a new engine seems INSANE.

I don't know why people are so defensive of Honda. I can promise you their feelings won't be hurt if they do get blamed. They ultimately have the power to assist in the repair costs or say "It's not our fault, you went to JiffyLube". Whether or not it's valid, they do have the final say. It is not unreasonable to suspect manufacturer defect in some way. All manufacturers mess up, Honda included.
 

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There are Valvoline, Mobil, and Castrol instant oil change facilities all around here. I am sure they are not using the cheapest crap they can get when their name is on the business. You can also get the proper oil from Jiffy, Take 5, or the other chains I am sure as they usually have a graded service such as good, better, best with different oils included in each. Some places will advertise a low oil change special in the hopes of getting you in and then try to up sell you on other items you may need or repairs you might need. Dealers do the same thing.

Yes, there are horror stories about some of the instant oil change places regarding what was or wasn't done, or what or wasn't used, or who was or wasn't qualified to even be looking under the hood yet alone doing work on the car. You know what though, there are similar horror stories about dealerships also!

As a consumer if you can not change your own oil, know what to ask for and confirm everything was done as it was supposed to be. Have the receipt marked with what oil and filter was used, etc.
Ok relax, it's your blown engine. Do what you want. I wouldn't be caught dead in any of those places. If you think they're on the level then that's your business
 

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Ok relax, it's your blown engine. Do what you want. I wouldn't be caught dead in any of those places. If you think they're on the level then that's your business
They wouldn't be in business if they ruined everyone's car. There are bad stories at every repair facility. Yes, they probably don't care half as much about your car, but its better than never changing your oil.
 

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They wouldn't be in business if they ruined everyone's car. There are bad stories at every repair facility. Yes, they probably don't care half as much about your car, but its better than never changing your oil.
Ok ok, I get it. Some people don't like changing their own oil. Lots of gamblers out there lol. Yeah they're not ruining everyone's car, but it could be yours!! It's not for me though, good luck with that guy making maybe $12 an hour who's mad at his gf. I won't do it, but you definitely can if you want.
 

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  • "Quick changers don’t give the super hot engine internals a chance to cool down to ambient (room) temperature before refilling with cold oil. That causes thermal shock, which some brittle metals (rings) don’t cope well with."

    Sleepwalker, you sound like you do work and maintenance on your own vehicles and are somewhat knowledgeable. I have to tell you though, I have been working on cars for over 50 years and have NEVER heard that piston rings or other "brittle" metal can be damaged by adding oil too soon during an oil change!!!! It takes well more than an hour for an internal engine to cool down to ambient (room) temperature! Can you just picture all of the cars waiting for an oil change for the car in front to cool off enough to add oil in your description?

    There are numerous oil filters better than Honda filters, and an owner does not have to use a Honda filter to maintain warranty or to expect long engine life. The non Honda filters do have to meet Honda specifications and many of them do so and even exceed those specifications. Just like engine oil, there are many that meet or exceed Honda specification. There have been a few incidents with Ford I believe where aftermarket oil filters where used and caused problems, but they did not meet Ford specifications.

    Do you believe that dealerships, oil change facilities, auto repair shops, or even DIY people wait for the engine to cool to ambient temperature? Come on, we all know they work as fast as they can and have never heard of "brittle" rings and thermal shock! If this was in fact happening, why don't we hear about substantial engine damages caused by such every day?

    I don't know if you have ever heard of a forum named "Bob Is The Oil Guy", but I would suggest you check it out. Very interesting discussion regarding almost anything car related from oil, filters, maintenance, and other topics. I am going to post your statement and see if any of those over there have ever heard of such a thing.

    After it is turned off, how long does it take for an engine to cool down?

















    5 Answers
    Loring Chien
    Loring Chien
    , Engineer, been taking care of cars for 46 years
    Answered Apr 10 2018 · Author has 29.7k answers and 52.6m answer views


    Theoretically forever. The heat loss will be proportional to the difference between the engine and the surrounding environment. As the engine cools to nearly the air temperature around it, the heat loss will become very small and hence takes hours to tail off to with the last couple of degrees. At some point you can’t feel the difference but it will be warmer than the environment for a long time to very sensitive instruments.
    Practically speaking, a engine is a large mass of iron and steel. Once you shut it off the circulatory coolant and forced air means of cooling are lost. It will take a at least a couple of hours to cool of to be able to be worked on, and can be many hours before you can appreciably feel it is cold.

    ...
    The point is: there are brittle castings used in many parts of an engine. Piston compression rings are very brittle. If you have ever rebuilt an engine, you would probably agree. Just take an old compression ring and with the proper ring installation tool, stretch it a little too much and your will see it’s not very resilient. Thermal shock affects brittle metals (cast metals vs forged) much more. So, why not let that engine cool off an extra hour before refilling with cold oil? I have done hundreds of oil changes on my Honda vehicles over the years exactly the same way, with Honda filters (always use Honda parts, that’s what our vehicles were designed with, and you will never be surprised) and I’ve never had an internal engine failure. So, when a new engine on a Pilot costs $17,000 why take chances?
 

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I guess we have different ideas...I would blame Honda unless something comes up that would show it wasn't the manufacturer's fault. 118,000 miles is not a lot for those engines. I am assuming it was the dealer that detected metal in the oil pan. $16,000 for a new engine seems INSANE.

I don't know why people are so defensive of Honda. I can promise you their feelings won't be hurt if they do get blamed. They ultimately have the power to assist in the repair costs or say "It's not our fault, you went to JiffyLube". Whether or not it's valid, they do have the final say. It is not unreasonable to suspect manufacturer defect in some way. All manufacturers mess up, Honda included.
I don’t know where the OP got the 16K quote for the engine. Carparts sells it for $4,799 (new). I don’t work for Honda neither am I affiliated with a dealership. I just own and drive a Honda Pilot. So your statement that “you don’t know why people are so defensive of Honda” should actually be replaced with “why do people blame auto manufacturers too quickly with little or no knowledge of the root cause of defects”. I drove a Nissan Maxima way above 300,000 miles and it’s still running. This is a 1996 vehicle though. A 2016 truck that has covered 118,000 miles is doing far more than the average number of miles a typical American does annually. All machines mess up but quality of maintenance can determine how long a machine lasts before it breaks down.


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A friend of mine had a problem with a Honda Pilot where oil started leaking excessively. They determined the engine had to be rebuilt. She got it completely covered under warranty (parts and labor). I don’t know what year it was or other details, but it’s worth checking to see if this is a known issue. Anyone have insights on this?
 

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I kid you not. 118,000 miles. I’m in shock still. This just doesn’t happen in Honda’s, right?

Regular maintenance but tbh not anything 100k+. No timing belt change. Oil changes at a local quick change place I’ve used for a long time. I always verbally reminded them about 0W-20 synthetic.

Heard ticking in the engine. Check engine light came on blinking on the highway. Pulled over and shut off the engine. Oil was down about 3/4 qt. Started it again and check engine light was off. Drove again and after a few minutes all the dash lights came on cycling through. Lost power and it felt like it was down a cylinder. At this point I’m thinking coils and plugs, valve adjustment and O2 sensors, possibly.

Limp to a parking lot. Towed it in and the dealer said metal in the oil pan. Engine is shot. They estimate $16,000 for new Honda engine and $11,000 for salvage engine installed.

Dealer said they would need to put a bunch of time into it to diagnose. I asked about the timing belt not being done yet and he didn’t think that was it. Time for a new vehicle. Not good.
The engine quotes you have are far too high, but typical of dealer quotes. Engine remanufacturing is a massive business. Do a search. You will find prices in the $3,500 range. Install fees are extra, and you may have to pay a core charge. Otherwise, the numbers you have in hand are pure nuts.
 
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