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Discussion Starter #41
I read it close to five years ago so I cannot tell you exactly what page I read it on, off the top of my head.
 

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Thanks for sharing. Not everyone has the problem because some read the owner's manual which tells you to add Fuel Additive like Fuel Injector Cleaner at every oil change. Lucas Gas Treatment is one. How many times did you add the required Gas additive to clean and lubricate your injectors? Ad Advanced Auto "Our Fuel Injectors OEM and aftermarket parts range from $43.99 to $121.16 for the Honda Pilot". They are simple to replace. There also mechanics that have fuel injector cleaning machines. All cars now use fuel injectors so it would be logical to add a gas additive every, 3 Oz if using Luca Gas treatment to the tank every 4 or 5 fill-ups or if using the small bottle of injector cleaner from another company the directions say to add the whole bottle when filling the tank up. Like any other moving part it must be clean and lubricated.
Can you point me to your claim of that being included in the Owners Manual? Prefer a page number and section heading please.

I ask this, not only to contest your statement, but also because 1) I cannot find such language and 2) Honda specifies not using Engine and Coolant additives.
 

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"Hey, curious where you read that Fuel Additive comment. Not writing to doubt, just like you I read the manual cover to cover (the FULL manual too) and couldn’t find it. Above is the only info related to fuel I could find."

I asked the same question when a similar statement was made stating it came from the owners manual. Honda does not make such a statement as far as I can tell, and he never replied to my question either.

UntiL HIS false statement is proven to be true, HONDA DOES NOT AND NEVER HAS SAID TO USE A FUEL ADDITIVE EVERY 5000 MILES.

Perhaps a dealership told him that, but it is not in the owners manual! A lot of dealers sell additional services such as fuel additives, transmission and oil additives, coolant system additives, etc. Not recommended by Honda, but pushed by the dealer for additional profit.
 

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Ok thank you for substantiating exactly what I thought and have heard owing both my Pilot and Accord. As long as it’s “Top Tier” gasoline, your good to go.
 

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Ok thank you for substantiating exactly what I thought and have heard owing both my Pilot and Accord. As long as it’s “Top Tier” gasoline, your good to go.
Granted I will put in a bottle of CDC Brand GDI cleaner to help possibly minimize the carbon deposits say ever 9-10k miles (once a year). More so superstition than actual problems I’ve had. Figure $15 can is cheaper than the alternative.
 

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I'm looking for it. Did find on Break-in Period, Fuel recommendation,page 394 "to use only Quality gasolines with octane 87 or higher with detergent additives. But I saw a note somewhere about adding a gas additive at every oil change. If you use cheap foreign gas I would definitely add Lucas gas treatment, 3 Oz every 3rd tankful. I know from experience that those foreign low cost gasolines will lead to engine error light coming on as engine sensors, injectors and catalytic sensor gets carboned up. I also researched and found out that gas additives are not regulated and not required by law. When I switched to Mobile 89 Oct plus fuel cleaners all the errors went away within week. Some gasoline is purchased at 87 Octane but with the water in the gas at some stations you have problems, no longer 87 Octane. I accidently found it while debugging the ghost errors and engine light error weeks after I bought the car. I fixed all of them. #1 spark plug was miss-firing due to bent electrode gap of only .027". Some mechanic must have dropped it. Factory gap is .044" same plugs at Auto Zone come .042" to suit other car manufacturers and work fine. Bad gas at Prime caused the other error on both the GMC and Pilot. 3rd time. Clues lead to gas cap so I cleaned it with WD40 so it now clicks 3 times, not once like before. Good for the last 4 weeks. I'll keep looking for you. Gas Additive is recommended by my local Honda mechanic, not dealer, as well as two mechanic that race and rebuilt cars.
 

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Granted I will put in a bottle of CDC Brand GDI cleaner to help possibly minimize the carbon deposits say ever 9-10k miles (once a year). More so superstition than actual problems I’ve had. Figure $15 can is cheaper than the alternative.
I agree, I spend $9 for a quart rather than pay the high price for Mobile 89 octane or higher. The bottle has lines on the side to make it easy to pour in just 3 OZ every so often. The additive made the mileage go up which was an instant payback. i personally will never buy gas at Prime stations ever again.
 

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This is why Top Tier fuels are in existence. Each manufacturer that wants to advertise it as being Top Tier has to meet specific requirements concerning the additives in their fuel. That way you are assured of a good quality and a fuel with the correct additives in the correct amount for best performance and cleaning.

Mobil is a Top Tier fuel, so no surprise it helped you. As for foreign countries, buyer beware.

Not wanting to get into the argument, but 87 octane is recommended by Honda and works well for MOST owners.
 

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View attachment 134295
Hey, curious where you read that Fuel Additive comment. Not writing to doubt, just like you I read the manual cover to cover (the FULL manual too) and couldn’t find it. Above is the only info related to fuel I could find.
I found that one in my 2010 Pilot Manual, still looking for the note I found that said to add gas additive at least once with every oil change. I've been doing it on all my cars for years rather that replace expensive sensors and pay mechanic bills to replace dirty sensors. $9 quart, 3 oz every once in a while is a better deal, plus the gas MPG improvement you can't go wrong.
 

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This is why Top Tier fuels are in existence. Each manufacturer that wants to advertise it as being Top Tier has to meet specific requirements concerning the additives in their fuel. That way you are assured of a good quality and a fuel with the correct additives in the correct amount for best performance and cleaning.

Mobil is a Top Tier fuel, so no surprise it helped you. As for foreign countries, buyer beware.

Not wanting to get into the argument, but 87 octane is recommended by Honda and works well for MOST owners.
Yes 87 Mobile will work and most any station will work for awhile. But only Mobile advertises that they have engine cleaner additives. Water from condensation happens when these huge gas tanks are almost empty and where some have rotted and have water leaking into them, then they are no longer 87 and contaminated. Also if you put 87 in car at 1/4 or 1/2 full and go on a long vacation or leave it for winter storage you can have that same condensation in your gas tank. Then "Dry Gas" is needed to get it running right again. I store my show cars with a full tank if they are not in a heated garage.
 

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Condensation/water contamination is no different whether you buy 87, 89, or 93 octane fuels. Either an engine is designed for 87 octane or it isnt.

Mobil (not Mobile) fuel is not the only vendor that advertises fuel detergent additives. ALL TOP TIER fuels must meet standards for detergent additives. Homepage

Lastly - the 2010 Honda Pilot owners manual does NOT recommend any fuel additives at oil changes. Owner's Manual | 2010 Honda Pilot | Honda Owners Site Simply put, Honda recommends 87 octane or higher gasoline, or 91 octane or higher when towing. "We recommend quality gasolines containing detergent additives that help prevent fuel system and engine deposits."
 

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Condensation/water contamination is no different whether you buy 87, 89, or 93 octane fuels. Either an engine is designed for 87 octane or it isnt.

Mobil (not Mobile) fuel is not the only vendor that advertises fuel detergent additives. ALL TOP TIER fuels must meet standards for detergent additives. Homepage

Lastly - the 2010 Honda Pilot owners manual does NOT recommend any fuel additives at oil changes. Owner's Manual | 2010 Honda Pilot | Honda Owners Site Simply put, Honda recommends 87 octane or higher gasoline, or 91 octane or higher when towing. "We recommend quality gasolines containing detergent additives that help prevent fuel system and engine deposits."
I'm saying is you have 87 Octane then add water do you think you still have 87 Octane? No it is diluted. if you did a controlled lab experiment you'd see a much lower BTU.
 

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@JGtravelor : Thanks for your responses, but you are misinformed. Neither the 2018+ nor your 2010 Pilot Owners manual speak anything about adding fuel additives; let alone their frequency. Your 2010 Pilot Engine OIl Additives is on Page 473, and Honda instructs against it.

Regardless of your preference and practice, instructing the masses who do not bother with the Owners Manual, misguides them when you say 'It is in the owners manual'.

Dealerships will advise you with all the voodoo in their books, to lighten your wallet. if it is not in the Owners Manual for maintenance or in the service manual for procedures, then such an exercise is not approved by Honda. Educating oneself in the proper maintenance by visiting owners.honda.com has huge benefits.
 

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I believe you meant to say the high pressure fuel pump; The recall was for the manufacturing process of the fuel pump, not the fuel injectors.
As you know, fuel injectors and the intake electric fuel pump are the opposite ends of the fuel system. The high pressure fuel pump sits between those. The shavings clog the fuel injectors (by lodging themselves in the injector screen).

Have you asked for a second or third opinion from a different dealership? If your VIN qualifies, the TSB & recall work will be performed promptly when the parts come by.
BTW, Kia/Hyundai is a good brand and they have bumped up their production of crossovers as the demand is very high. Jan 2020 sales figures were not too promising for the Pilot.
Not sure about a recall, but a TSB-19-073 was issued. Issued 8-9-2019 and superseded the previous one from 7-19-2019. Part of the TSB-19-073 reads

PROBABLE CAUSE The PCM software may misinterpret sensor inputs as a deteriorated catalytic converter. Additionally, debris from the fuel injector machining process or high pressure fuel pump can cause internal wear or clogging in the injector.
 

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Not sure about a recall, but a TSB-19-073 was issued. Issued 8-9-2019 and superseded the previous one from 7-19-2019. Part of the TSB-19-073 reads

PROBABLE CAUSE The PCM software may misinterpret sensor inputs as a deteriorated catalytic converter. Additionally, debris from the fuel injector machining process or high pressure fuel pump can cause internal wear or clogging in the injector.
That is really weird. The 2017 Ridgelines had a recall 19V-053 issued on 01/24/2019 for a Fuel Pump inspection Safety Recall. I misunderstood that it was the recall based on the machining process, looks like it was for intank fuel pump, not the high pressure one in the engine bay.

The TSB 19-073 does include all three Honda Large/truck models. Looking deeper into the TSB definition, it is unfortunate that the TSBs are essentially an acknowledgement of oversight by the manufacturer, but since it is not safety related, the customer bears the burden of the repairs. It is a bit harsh that even the dealerships are to perform these repairs at cost and the vehicle manufacturer does not 'have to' fully credit or discount the cost associated with the repairs. General consensuses over at Odyclub and ROC is that Honda Co 'works' with the dealership and customer to the extent they could and reduce the financial loss of the customer. Only consolation is that when a TSB service is performed, it is documented in the vehicle history and also a comprehensive diagnostics is performed on the vehicle which is also documented. This can potentially 'catch' issues, that maybe lurking and unexpected.

To those with these issues, I certainly do feel your pain as, naturally speaking, I would not be a happy camper. Do your best to be collected and calm; do your best to state your case and have the manufacturer fix the issue. Keep pushing it with various reps as much as possible (in a civil way) to reduce your own financial exposure related with this.
 

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Last week, I got the dreaded "Emissions System Problem" light, among a host other lights. I took the car into a Honda dealership the next day and both employees I initially spoke with said "unfortunately, it's probably the fuel injectors and it's going to cost about $1800 to repair". After running the diagnostic testing, sure enough, the report came back with misfires in three cylinders and the conclusion was that I needed all six fuel injectors replaced, for $1900! I have approximately 70K miles on my car, so it seemed a bit odd to me that I should need all new fuel injectors. I immediately called American Honda and requested "Goodwill Assistance". I have owned six Honda vehicles, including my 2016 Pilot and I have never had issues like this at 70K miles. (A few months back, I also had the transmission problem with the "judder", and I learned that my transmission fluid was degrading prematurely and I needed new fluid and the computer software updated. Needless to say, I was not surprised at yet another problem with this car.)

Last weekend I had time to do a lot of research on the fuel injector issue, and I cannot believe how many complaints I am finding online. Most frustrating, was when I found various forum posts online that tie this issue to Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) 18-025. This TSB, which was released in March 2018, states that the "probable cause" for this issue is due to an issue at the factory during the manufacturing process. My first question is how on earth could Honda not notify customers of this potential problem while so many customers were still under the 3 year/36,000 warranty? Well, when I asked the "Case Manager" that I dealt with at American Honda this exact question, her (very un-empathetic) response was "we are not going to notify the entire country" ... "your fuel injectors would not have been replaced two years ago if there was nothing wrong with them". Really? Maybe there was something wrong with them when I could have easily had it covered under warranty or maybe Honda could have notified customers, if nothing else, for their own safety! I find this issue unbelievable. However, I am not surprised especially after learning that American Honda was fined 70 million dollars in 2015, by the government, for under reporting safety information. Unfortunately, Honda has a ton of negative publicity and seems to have really lost their competitive advantage recently due to their lack of quality and transparency.

After waiting one week for the outcome of my goodwill assistance request, Honda did come through and cover all but $200 of my new fuel injector repair cost. Now, in actuality, its also important to note that the cost of this repair, without extreme markup, is about $1200. So, Honda "paid" for approximately $1000 of my repair. Considering Honda knew about this problem years ago and failed to notify their customers in a timely fashion, I still think Honda should have paid 100% of the repair cost. I strongly urge anyone else this happens to, to demand that American Honda pay a significant portion of the repair bill. Had American Honda not paid for the bulk of my repair, I would have paid for it myself and then sued them in Small Claims Court. I checked court records and in my state, there are a lot of pending and settled cases against American Honda. I may very well go that route next if I have to sink any more money into the transmission system issue. Of course, when I got home and I reviewed the results of my multi point inspection, I am being told that my transmission fluid needs attention again; I just had it changed 10K miles ago?! How can this car possibly need new transmission fluid again after driving only 10K miles. Something is not right.

Needless to say, the 2016 Honda Pilot is a complete disappointment. I am ready to seek the help of a class action lawsuit attorney if these problems persist. I bought a $40K car so that I wouldn't have to buy another car for a good 10 years. Unfortunately, I am going to probably have to dump this car and trade it in before the problems persist. Who knows what will happen as the mileage increases on the car?! I don't even want to think about it. Good luck to everyone else in the same boat. I guess Toyota just gained a new customer as a result of all of this nonsense.

I have also reported problems with this car to:
  • National Highway Traffic Safety Administration
  • Hondaproblems.com
  • Better Business Bureau
I think the only way American Honda may ever be held accountable for such quality issues and a complete lack of transparency is if everyone with issues speaks up!
Thank you very much for this helpful information!
 
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