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ZF Nine-Speed Transmission Problems, recalls and praise.

624K views 1.1K replies 296 participants last post by  skaughtz  
#1 ·
I'm really hoping that Honda ditches this transmission in the Touring and Elite models for 2017.

After more than two years, thousands of warranty claims, and hundreds of owner complaints, transmission supplier ZF is finally issuing a recall to fix its nine-speed automatic.


The transmission can unexpectedly shift into neutral while driving due to an improper crimp on a wiring harness attached to the sensor cluster, which controls the “shift pattern and quality,” according to ZF. The manufacturing defect results in high electrical resistance that causes the transmission to shift into neutral. So far, ZF says this problem affects 505,000 cars in the United States, the majority of them sold by Fiat Chrysler. A software update will either prevent the random shift to neutral or give the driver “adequate warning” before the transmission does so anyway.


ZF is not recommending automakers make any physical repairs to the affected cars despite making a crimping change to its production line starting in July 2014. Reviewing the database on the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration’s website, we found at least 895 owners complaining not just of sudden shifts to neutral but acceleration surges, rough shifts, hesitation to downshift, and even vehicles that rolled away in neutral or engaged drive after the owners claimed they had selected park. At least 10 related injuries have been reported to NHTSA, three of which involved drivers who claimed they were run over as they got out of their cars after selecting park.
When asked if it would fix these other reported problems, ZF deferred to the automakers.
“In this instance, ZF provided the necessary documentation to NHTSA to address a specific issue,” company spokesman Bryan Johnson said. “All other concerns and filings need to be addressed by our customers. It is ZF’s policy to refrain from speaking on their behalf.”


Current vehicles equipped with the ZF 9HP transmission include the 2014–2016 Jeep Cherokee, 2015–2016 Jeep Renegade, Chrysler 200, and Ram ProMaster City; 2016 Fiat 500X; 2014–2017 Range Rover Evoque and 2015–2017 Land Rover Discovery Sport; upper trims of the 2015–2016 Honda Pilot, and six-cylinder versions of the 2015–2017 Acura TLX. Other than FCA, no other automakers have issued a recall, and FCA is not recalling the 2016 models, at least not yet.


Problems with the ZF transmission surfaced first on the redesigned Jeep Cherokee in May 2014, months after FCA delayed the new vehicle’s launch by several weeks to recalibrate the transmission software. At that time, a dozen owners reported vehicles shifting into neutral and poor shift quality. By February 2015—when FCA recalled nearly 78,000 Chrysler 200 sedans for apparently unrelated electrical problems that caused the same transmission to shift into neutral—more than 120 transmission complaints were registered with NHTSA on the 2014 Cherokee. A second recall involving the Chrysler 200 this past May cited faulty parking pawls and rods within the transmission for causing rollaways. Nearly 4000 warranty claims have been submitted to FCA through June 30 of this year, according to the automaker.


To date, there are at least 661 complaints regarding the Cherokee’s transmission problems and more than 130 complaints on the Chrysler 200. Of the 10 total injuries reported to NHTSA related to this transmission, nine injuries have occurred in FCA models. FCA dealers—as well as Honda and Land Rover dealers—have continued to update the transmission software and replace entire transmissions to no avail, according to complaints.


FCA is only recalling models up to the 2015 model year (412,855 in total), despite at least 16 more owner complaints on 2016 models. Another 10 complaints on 2016 Honda Pilot and Acura TLX models have also been logged.


ZF and FCA are also under fire—including a NHTSA investigation into the death of actor Anton Yelchin—for the design of an eight-speed automatic shifter on several late-model Jeep, Chrysler, and Dodge models. FCA has begun to recall the 811,000 cars to apply a software update to those models.
ZF Recalls Nine-Speed Automatic for Random Drops into Neutral, Only Involves Software Update - News - Car and Driver | Car and Driver Blog
 
#11 ·
I said from the beginning that I wasn't a fan of the ZF 9-spd in the Pilot (on paper). It was the whole reason I didn't get a Pilot (as I wanted a Touring or Elite model). A test drive of the Elite confirmed my dislike of the 9-spd (and all of the technologies that come along with it). Now this... I realize this doesn't include Honda vehicles (yet) but it's not a stretch to say that the makers of a half-million defective transmissions could have made others that are also not-quite-right...

Either way, I'm sure I'll get replies about how great the 9-spd is and how people couldn't be happier. That's good! I don't like to see people unhappy -- especially about a vehicle purchase... just not for me!
 
#12 · (Edited)
Yes, you are brilliant Leonard for not purchasing a Pilot based on your transmission discerment. But those of us who did (buy one) well ... We R enjoying the heck out of a fantastic vehicle and super glad we picked it (at least anchor3n1 is/does for one) ... :eek:
 
#13 ·
Mine's got nearly 19,000 miles on it now and has been excellent. It's even better since the tranny update. Before it had a bit of surging in the lower gears when driving around town, but the update smoothed that out completely. If mine is one of those that is included in the recall, I'll count myself fortunate that there was a possible issue & ZF is stepping up to the plate to fix it.

It's a crimp on an electrical connection folks. It's not that big of a deal & it's going to be fixed. The ZF 9 is a marvelous piece of mechanical engineering. It will be OK, people...
 
#18 ·
Nah



Not for anchor3n1. He knows that should there be an issue, Honda will take good care of it just like it did with the Tanaka air bag issue (anchor3n1 has a CRV. Honda provided a free loaner till the airbag was replaced which took 3 months till the parts came in to the dealer).

In the meantime:

anchor3n1 is gunna DRIVE IT LIKE HE STOLE as he usually does!
 
#19 ·
Poorman is still going to drive it the same way as well.....14 months and over 19K on her/his (she lets me drive it every now and then) 2016 Touring AWD Pilot and still happy....just a week or so ago while she was in the hospital I drove it a ton.......work, hospital, home ect.....loved the heck out of it.

This is a forum, so we have to remember the "needs of the few, out weigh the needs of the many".

I will still say, I LOVE the radio....no issues at all.....let that soak in :)
 
#20 ·
You realize that the 500,000 vehicles includes the following?

"Without warning, the transmission can shift into neutral at any speed or gear because of an insufficient crimp on a wiring harness attached to the sensor cluster. Models affected include the 2014-16 Jeep Cherokee, 2015-16 Jeep Renegade, 2015-17 Chrysler 200, 2015-16 RAM ProMaster City, 2016 Fiat 500X, 2014-17 Range Rover Evoque, 2015-17 Land Rover Discovery, 2015-17 Acura TLX (V6) and certain trims of the 2015-16 Honda Pilot."

For a wire crimp issue in the wiring harness..

So far, 600 vehicles have reported the issue..

Pretty long odds on having the issue, but at least it's being fixed.

Recalls do not mean that everyone will have the issue, it is recognized that it is an issue and needs to be repaired before it has a chance of happening.

At least it is not fuel clips on the fuel injection rails.. Those are interesting ones to get.
 
#21 ·
My statement that "it's not that big of a big deal" was directed at the problem itself, not the consequences. I apologize for not explaining myself better. The crimp on an electrical component, whether that crimp is on a wire or if it's a loose connection of a connector to a terminal will be easy to fix and poor connections are a fairly common occurrence, both in DC voltage connections and in AC voltage connections. That's not that big of a deal and most likely very easy to resolve unless it's a deep internal connection.

My attempt to calm nerves didn't work out so well. I'll go to bed now... Those of you who've traded their Pilots off already can get a good night's sleep. :grin:
 
#23 · (Edited)
Maybe I misunderstand the recall news, but it reads like the crimp was not properly set prior to July 2014 and that it was corrected since then. And that the recall is to update the software to reduce the chance of the transmission going to neutral for the affected vehicles (why don't they want to fix the bad crimp instead?). I do not know why the Pilot was bundled in the recall since it was produced past that date, unless the news lists all vehicles with the ZF 9-speed transmission regardless of the date.

My take on the Honda TSB was to adjust the gear shift dynamics to reduce the feeling of surging, and appears to be unrelated to this recall.
 
#24 · (Edited)
Maybe I misunderstand the recall news, but it reads like the crimp was not properly set prior to July 2014 and that it was corrected since then. And that the recall is to update the software to reduce the chance of the transmission going to neutral for the affected vehicles (why don't they want to fix the bad crimp instead?). I do not know why the Pilot was bundled in the recall since it was produced past that date, unless the news lists all vehicles with the ZF 9-speed transmission regardless of the date.

My take on the Honda TSB was to adjust the gear shift dynamics to reduce the feeling of surging, and appears to be unrelated to this recall.
According to this article ZF Recalls Nine-Speed Automatic for Random Drops into Neutral, Only Involves Software Update - News - Car and Driver | Car and Driver Blog the crimp connection was changed in transmissions produced after July 2014, not vehicles. Who knows without looking at serial # on the transmission itself, when the tranny in our own particular vehicle was actually produced. Like you, I believe it would be much wiser to redo the crimp rather than just update hardware. I guess it's a wait & see game at this point. At least we are aware that there is a potential problem & we can be proactive...

I have seen 2 different articles now that state the '16' model Hondas & FCA models will not be recalled @ this time. Hopefully all of the '16' model vehicles have trannys built after July of '14'...
 
#27 ·
anchor3n1 thanks Leonard for the detailed response:wink: but even so (anchor3n1's '16 is a fantastic "ride" not matter how Leonard tries to explain it - the Pilot's quality, safety, etc - away),

thus:

anchor3n1 is still gunna DRIVE IT LIKE HE STOLE IT:smile:
 
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#28 ·
Nope

Leonard1818 said:
You can also thank your DEALER for the loaner, not Honda corp. I've seen more reports of non-loaners than loaners.
No Leonard. anchor3n1 received an airbag recall notice/letter directly from Honda and within the letter Honda stated that the CRV should be taken out of use until the airbag was replaced/fixed. And, if this presented an issue that Honda will provide a loaner vehicle until the recall repair was completed.

THE LOANER VEHICLE WAS NOT OFFERED OR PROVIDED BY THE DEALER BUT RATHER IT WAS PROVIDED BY AMERICAN HONDA CORP :wink:

anchor3n1 appreciates Honda's attentiveness and response to the airbag problem and thus is confidant that they will again respond professionally to the transmission issue should it turn into a recall:grin:
 
#43 ·
No Leonard. anchor3n1 received an airbag recall notice/letter directly from Honda and within the letter Honda stated that the CRV should be taken out of use until the airbag was replaced/fixed. And, if this presented an issue that Honda will provide a loaner vehicle until the recall repair was completed.

THE LOANER VEHICLE WAS NOT OFFERED OR PROVIDED BY THE DEALER BUT RATHER IT WAS PROVIDED BY AMERICAN HONDA CORP :wink:

anchor3n1 appreciates Honda's attentiveness and response to the airbag problem and thus is confidant that they will again respond professionally to the transmission issue should it turn into a recall:grin:
Interesting information.

I will be honest, I am a bit weirded out by all the third-person speak, but, nonetheless, I do wonder why others with various recalls have not been provided a loaner? I was always given a loaner from Acura when I owned my RSX and took it in. I was given a loaner from my local Honda dealer when they were just doing an Oil Change/Tire Rotation! It was, however, a really, really old Odyssey. I would have figured if that were a corporate vehicle from Honda, it would have been something newer...

Regardless, Leonard has learned something new today, perhaps!
 
#29 ·
I had the software update done to my 9 speed transmission on 5 August. Then drove 2100 km from Canada to California and it feels way smoother even though I never had any problems before. Sat on 80mph most of the way and the car drove perfectly in temperatures ranging from 15 - 38 degrees Celsius or 60 - 100 degrees Farenheit. Averaged 10.5 litres per 100km or 23 miles per gallon. Kids watched movies via DVD or via their IPAD with HDMI plug and it worked well.


Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App
 
#32 · (Edited)
anchor3n1 wants to make something crystal clear and thinks it is important to be said. And that is that reports and information regarding issues with the '16 Pilot are generally helpful and one of the great values of this website/forum IAHO ("in anchor3n1's humble opinion" :grin: ). The OP has provided just this type of great value in posting the information about the ZF tranny.

However, it is not generally of much help IAHO (see above for acronym definition :)) when information like this is used by others to make generalities about (or imply that all '16s and Honda in general are substandard).
 
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#37 ·
Motor Trend has 9sp Transmission Replaced in their longterm vehicle

2016 Honda Pilot Elite Review - Long-Term Update 3

Certainly not what Honda wanted to have happen to a vehicle that was in the hands of possible the most read auto publication in the country. Doubt it will have any significant affect on sales, but anybody who is on the fence certainly won't like reading this....
 
#39 ·
2016 Honda Pilot Elite Review - Long-Term Update 3

Certainly not what Honda wanted to have happen to a vehicle that was in the hands of possible the most read auto publication in the country. Doubt it will have any significant affect on sales, but anybody who is on the fence certainly won't like reading this....
This is a bit of a bummer (that Motortrend got the lemon).

This chirping item, is it chirping similar to a manual shift from 1st to 2nd on the race track, basically the tires chirping as the tranny shifts gears and power is applied once the next gear takes? If i were to test this, is it simply flooring it and going through the gears? Or, does this occur under normal driving conditions as well?