The dreaded Torque Shudder

[dpbaillie]

Hi,

I know there are several old threads about this problem, but I wanted to start a new one. My 2013 EX-L has the issue pretty bad where I get the shudder/vibration at many different speeds. Perhaps I'm becoming more cognizant of it, but it does seem to be happening more and more lately. It seems as I put more miles on it (currently 1,700). it is getting worse.

Has anyone else had the experience that it last for quite a while? When I'm on the highway and the road grade is consistent the rumbling and vibration is continuous provided I don't increase/decrease speed.

I've taken it into the dealer once (last week) and received the "its normal torque converter shudder" explanation, but at this point I intend to pursue some action towards trying to find a solution. I will be setting up a meeting with the service manager and requesting their lead mechanic join us. This problem has to be repairable. I just feel that to acknowledge it would cost Honda significantly and thus they're avoiding it.

I will also be taking beginning steps to pursuing the Lemon Law in my state (MD) where I believe I can argue the problem reduces the value of the vehicle. Whom would want to buy a vehicle that rumbles and vibrates constantly? I love the Pilot and would like the problem fixed, but the constant rumbling/vibrating is unacceptable when there has to be a way to repair the problem. Most, if not all, problems are repairable.

I have found that there is a pending class action lawsuit against Honda for the Odyssey's Torque converters that are having similar problems, however, there is an additional problem related to surging that is different and more serious than our problem. One thing I noticed in the legal paperwork that was filed in CA was that there were many more complaints to the NHTSA than we Pilot owners have made.

Thoughts and comments are welcome.

[RinconVTR]

The Ody had a torque converter shudder (and surge in some cases) was claimed to be fixed with a firmware update related to the TC, but the Pilots issues are seemingly more linked to VCM.

I find it interesting the dealer said it was the TC shudder actually. So, the tough part is determining which issue is really presenting itself. The next, is it normal? I can tell you, driving an Gen 2 EX without VCM and EX-L with VCM is notably different. But is it each persons perception of vibration and low frequency noise? To some it might be unnoticable, others may find it intolerable.

I have owned both the Ody that fell into the build dates of the TC shudder and I now own a Pilot with VCM. I have personally driven in an Ody with the actual problem ocuring, and in that case the owner got a new TC. That was very real, and vibrations intolerable. There doesnt seem to be that level of vibration with the Pilots, but I have yet to experiance a Pilot with someones claim that it has this problem.

Its hard to believe that of all the recent reports on here about the issue, Honda would not keep one single case open and make repairs on a single one.


So IMO, your best bet is to open a case with Honda and then do exactly as you plan. Take the service manager and a tech for a drive. Then all findings will be recorded (even your telephone calls) within that case number.

[Yahooligan]

The continuous rumbling you hear (For us it's at 65MPH on flat ground) is from VCM and the computer deactivating 2-3 cylinders to improve fuel economy. It has nothing to do with the torque converter or trans. There are a number of threads on this subject already, poke around and do some reading. The short answer is there's not really anything you can do.

[dpbaillie]

Yahooiligan,

It seems there are different opinions as to whether it's the VCM or TC. I can only go based on what the Honda service department tells me. They say TC shudder, so I'll accept and pursue a repair to that diagnosis.

I am also experiencing this at practically all speeds. Just this morning it was occurring at 70mph, 40mph, and 35mph.

I could accept a two or three second shudder when transitioning to VCM, if that's what it is, but the fact is I can get it to last much longer and almost indefinitely if the road grade is consistent and I maintain a consistent speed. This is where it becomes intolerable for a 34k vehicle.

[Yahooligan]

Originally Posted by dpbaillie

Yahooiligan,

It seems there are different opinions as to whether it's the VCM or TC. I can only go based on what the Honda service department tells me. They say TC shudder, so I'll accept and pursue a repair to that diagnosis.

I am also experiencing this at practically all speeds. Just this morning it was occurring at 70mph, 40mph, and 35mph.

I could accept a two or three second shudder when transitioning to VCM, if that's what it is, but the fact is I can get it to last much longer and almost indefinitely if the road grade is consistent and I maintain a consistent speed. This is where it becomes intolerable for a 34k vehicle.

TC shudder is not something that will happen continuously under low torque loads, it's something you would experience during shifting or under heavy loads.

The vibration/shudder that you're feeling probably has the harmonic frequency of a low buzzing sound and I bet you can get it to go away by just giving a LITTLE more throttle input without changing gears or causing the TC to unlock. If that's the case then that is VCM without a doubt.

We have not had any TC issues, everything with our 2012 has come from VCM, whether it's the constant-speed vibration/buzz (Which isn't horrible, but it is noticeable) or the occasional shudder when VCM kicks off with a bit of throttle it's VCM.

TCC shudder is entirely different.

[Filipilot]

Originally Posted by dpbaillie

Yahooiligan,

It seems there are different opinions as to whether it's the VCM or TC. I can only go based on what the Honda service department tells me. They say TC shudder, so I'll accept and pursue a repair to that diagnosis.

I am also experiencing this at practically all speeds. Just this morning it was occurring at 70mph, 40mph, and 35mph.

I could accept a two or three second shudder when transitioning to VCM, if that's what it is, but the fact is I can get it to last much longer and almost indefinitely if the road grade is consistent and I maintain a consistent speed. This is where it becomes intolerable for a 34k vehicle.

Traded in my 2012 EXL with 3000 miles due to the same concern, it will get worse overtime, at least that's what i felt.There is no fix yet so I just took the hit. Good luck...

[john segal]

Please keep us all informed of your class action suit.
Why cant honda let the owners who dislike this vcm feature,
just reprogram it OUT?

[mudbog]

They can't reprogram it out permanenty because without VCM, the Pilot can't meet its EPA MPG rating. But Honda could add an option to an existing switch to turn the feature on or off. As long as VCM is still available, they can use it for the EPA test. Wouldn't it be nice, for example, if there was an option through the dash button to toggle VCM on/off. I can't think of a technical reason why Honda can't do that by reprogramming the ECU. The non-VCM mode already exists today. But it's only active before the engine gets up to operating temperature. That's is why most people don't experience it during a short test drive.

[EmptyTank]

Originally Posted by dpbaillie

Hi,

I know there are several old threads about this problem, but I wanted to start a new one. My 2013 EX-L has the issue pretty bad where I get the shudder/vibration at many different speeds. Perhaps I'm becoming more cognizant of it, but it does seem to be happening more and more lately. It seems as I put more miles on it (currently 1,700). it is getting worse.

Has anyone else had the experience that it last for quite a while? When I'm on the highway and the road grade is consistent the rumbling and vibration is continuous provided I don't increase/decrease speed.

I've taken it into the dealer once (last week) and received the "its normal torque converter shudder" explanation, but at this point I intend to pursue some action towards trying to find a solution. I will be setting up a meeting with the service manager and requesting their lead mechanic join us. This problem has to be repairable. I just feel that to acknowledge it would cost Honda significantly and thus they're avoiding it.

I will also be taking beginning steps to pursuing the Lemon Law in my state (MD) where I believe I can argue the problem reduces the value of the vehicle. Whom would want to buy a vehicle that rumbles and vibrates constantly? I love the Pilot and would like the problem fixed, but the constant rumbling/vibrating is unacceptable when there has to be a way to repair the problem. Most, if not all, problems are repairable.

I have found that there is a pending class action lawsuit against Honda for the Odyssey's Torque converters that are having similar problems, however, there is an additional problem related to surging that is different and more serious than our problem. One thing I noticed in the legal paperwork that was filed in CA was that there were many more complaints to the NHTSA than we Pilot owners have made.

Thoughts and comments are welcome.

First things first: is your ECO light lit (VCM engaged) when you are having shudder? Have you ever had shudder when it was not lit?

[Strate L O S S]

I've had "it" without the ECO light lit.

It's no big deal, torque converter lockup plus the active mounts. Well for me it is barely noticeable and I'm confident that others exaggerate it a bit.


Sent from AutoGuide.com Free App

[Melo]

I had a 2004 Pilot LX, a 2007 Ody, a 2010 Pilot touring (I should of kept) and now a 2013 Pilot with 128 miles on it. If I knew this was going to be an issue, I would of pursued another manufacture. I am very very disappointed. I also have a 2012 Civic and had in the past a Civic and Accord. This issue is not very Honda of them!

[boyce89976]

Originally Posted by Yahooligan

The continuous rumbling you hear (For us it's at 65MPH on flat ground) is from VCM and the computer deactivating 2-3 cylinders to improve fuel economy. It has nothing to do with the torque converter or trans. There are a number of threads on this subject already, poke around and do some reading. The short answer is there's not really anything you can do.

This is not accurate. VCM vibrations are caused by the "event" of shutting off, or turning on cylinders and only last for a couple of seconds, if noticeable at all. The continuous vibrations under certain loads are due to TC lockup.

[Yahooligan]

Originally Posted by boyce89976

This is not accurate. VCM vibrations are caused by the "event" of shutting off, or turning on cylinders and only last for a couple of seconds, if noticeable at all. The continuous vibrations under certain loads are due to TC lockup.

Sorry, no, the vibrations we experience in our 2012 are due to VCM. I know what TCC shudder feels like and this is NOT it. The 65mph shudder only happens on level ground at a constant speed with the ECO light on. A little more throttle deactivates VCM and ECO light, the shudder goes away without any change whatsoever with the TC or trans.

[EmptyTank]

Originally Posted by Melo

I had a 2004 Pilot LX, a 2007 Ody, a 2010 Pilot touring (I should of kept) and now a 2013 Pilot with 128 miles on it. If I knew this was going to be an issue, I would of pursued another manufacture. I am very very disappointed. I also have a 2012 Civic and had in the past a Civic and Accord. This issue is not very Honda of them!

But are you having any problems with yours? Not every Pilot has the D.T.'s.

[cortina]

Originally Posted by mudbog

They can't reprogram it out permanenty because without VCM, the Pilot can't meet its EPA MPG rating. But Honda could add an option to an existing switch to turn the feature on or off. As long as VCM is still available, they can use it for the EPA test. Wouldn't it be nice, for example, if there was an option through the dash button to toggle VCM on/off. I can't think of a technical reason why Honda can't do that by reprogramming the ECU. The non-VCM mode already exists today. But it's only active before the engine gets up to operating temperature. That's is why most people don't experience it during a short test drive.

Smart Thinking. I have grown used to the very small vibration when VCM kicks in.

Now i know why the crafty salesman made me test drive in a designated parking lot area lol