The dreaded Torque Shudder

[surfsup]

Originally Posted by dpbaillie

Ok, so my case is now opened with Honda and I am expecting the case manager to call me by the end of tomorrow. The dealership communicated my issue with Honda and relayed that Honda stated the the problem appears to be worse in some cars than others, but they consider the problem to be normal.

So, I am asking that Honda describe technically, with supporting literature, what is causing the rumbling and vibrating in my Pilot. I will also ask why this is considered normal when in other Pilots the problem is less severe or doesn't exist. Finally, I will ask why they feel this has no long term impact on the life expectancy of the vehicle and to respond to the impact that this problem will have on the the resale value.

did you see 2ndPilot's post above?

[surfsup]

Originally Posted by john segal

Go for it DB,
The Ford Explorer I just test drove gets as good mpg and is much quieter Without all Honda's mechanical wizardry.

2012 Ford Explorer Consumer Reviews

http://www.explorerforum.com/forums/...play.php?f=152

Ford Explorer MPG Reports | Fuelly

there are people finding problems with Fords too (all cars)...

[dexley74]

I'm having the shudder issue too and it's noticeable at times, but I have two other problems that are vibration related. When accelerating from a stop, when the car is in 3rd gear, it starts to vibrate. I can feel the vibration through my seat, but not steering wheel or shifter. Also, when driving very slow (say through a parking lot) and on an incline, if I give it the tinniest amount of gas, the engine knocks rather loudly.

Is anyone experiencing these issues?

[mudbog]

The knocking could be from the winter blend of gas. Try running a tank of non-ethanol blend gas through. Looking on Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada, the BP at 5016 Commons Hill Drrive sells non-ethanol gas.

When you say "starting out in 3rd gear", do you mean you are pressing the overdrive button to force it into D3 or are you sensing when it is in 3rd gear from a standstill? The tranny is a 5-speed.

[dexley74]

Originally Posted by mudbog

The knocking could be from the winter blend of gas. Try running a tank of non-ethanol blend gas through. Looking on Ethanol-free gas stations in the U.S. and Canada, the BP at 5016 Commons Hill Drrive sells non-ethanol gas.

When you say "starting out in 3rd gear", do you mean you are pressing the overdrive button to force it into D3 or are you sensing when it is in 3rd gear from a standstill? The tranny is a 5-speed.

Thanks mudbog. Regarding the 3rd gear, I should have been more clear. The vibration is during acceleration when the vehicle reaches 3rd gear. I feel it in the seat and more specifically it's when your about half way through 3rd gear when you feel it. It continues into fourth but only briefly and then smooths out.

[BigWhite]

Great link! Thank you

[split71]

Originally Posted by dexley74

Thanks mudbog. Regarding the 3rd gear, I should have been more clear. The vibration is during acceleration when the vehicle reaches 3rd gear. I feel it in the seat and more specifically it's when your about half way through 3rd gear when you feel it. It continues into fourth but only briefly and then smooths out.

My '12 does this also...especially if the A/C is on.

[boyce89976]

Originally Posted by surfsup

My friend is going to make damn sure he gets a good test drive due to these threads, which is what is so great about forums like this. Yes, you are correct, I was fortunate.

However, you should be able to find a Honda rep that will have no problem with observing 'sickening' or 'loose wheel' shudder sensations, and admitting you have a legitimate concern. Being your problem is that noticeably bad and if Honda absolutely refuses to help you, there are legions of lawyers that will take your case if you're still under warranty (or filed your complaints under warranty).

Evidently we can only go on your posts here and I don't doubt a word you have said. As such, you definitely have a really bad problem and a really bad dealer. You need to take whatever (well documented) steps necessary to resolve this. Keep us posted.

I can appreciate that, but my issues didn't show up until the first service at ~7500 miles. Prior to the service, the vehicle was smooth as glass. Since then Honda service has acknowledged the problem and is doing a 3x tranny flush with each oil change (every 5k miles, my choice). Their quality control tech even invited me over to his house where he has a lift, and we unbolted and re-torqued everything to do with engine mounts, tranny mounts and suspension mounts thinking that something had come unsettled during the first service. it's a weird issue, and doesn't happen all the time... today, it didn't happen at all. Last night, I felt like I was rolling over rumble strips.

[john segal]

To split 71,
What you describe is not the VCM shudder. That vibration is coming from the rear drive shaft (if it is all wheel drive) That vibe is most noticeable between 40 and 50 mph. Then it smooths out. Honda re balanced the shaft.
It is better but still notice it.The worst is when I am gently cruising at 45mph and now have the VCM loose 3 cylinders AND the rear drive shaft vibrates too.
The tech at Honda removed the shaft to prove it and the vehicle had no vibe what so ever. (until the VCM kicked in!)

[dpbaillie]

Originally Posted by john segal

To split 71,
What you describe is not the VCM shudder. That vibration is coming from the rear drive shaft (if it is all wheel drive) That vibe is most noticeable between 40 and 50 mph. Then it smooths out. Honda re balanced the shaft.
It is better but still notice it.The worst is when I am gently cruising at 45mph and now have the VCM loose 3 cylinders AND the rear drive shaft vibrates too.
The tech at Honda removed the shaft to prove it and the vehicle had no vibe what so ever. (until the VCM kicked in!)

Wow, Honda really has some issues here if, in addition to VCM Vibration and torque converter judder, they are now having issues with the rear drive shaft.

My call with Honda Corporate took place today regarding my case #. They will be contacting the dealer and then following up with me next week.

[mudbog]

Like I noted earlier, if Honda wanted to satsify their customers with VCM complaints without spending a bundle of money throwing parts at the problem the could add an option to an existing switch to turn the VCM feature on or off. As long as the VCM option is still available, they can use it for the EPA test. It seems kind of silly that they wouldn't do something like this at least to appease existing customers. If anybody that works for Honda is reading these posts, please take this recommendation back to the designers.

[surfsup]

Originally Posted by boyce89976

I can appreciate that, but my issues didn't show up until the first service at ~7500 miles. Prior to the service, the vehicle was smooth as glass. Since then Honda service has acknowledged the problem and is doing a 3x tranny flush with each oil change (every 5k miles, my choice). Their quality control tech even invited me over to his house where he has a lift, and we unbolted and re-torqued everything to do with engine mounts, tranny mounts and suspension mounts thinking that something had come unsettled during the first service. it's a weird issue, and doesn't happen all the time... today, it didn't happen at all. Last night, I felt like I was rolling over rumble strips.

Yours seems like something totally different than/ or in addition to the VCM issue that most folks are complaining about?

[boyce89976]

Originally Posted by surfsup

Yours seems like something totally different than/ or in addition to the VCM issue that most folks are complaining about?

Agreed. I never said it was VCM, it's the torque converter.

[dpbaillie]

Okay here goes my update from Honda Corp Case Manager.

He called yesterday and we sparred back and forth with his telling my he spoke with the dealership and they diagnosed torque converter judder. He followed it up with the same mantra that Honda doesn't see it as a "problem" with the vehicle. I then stated that the diagnosis was given to me as soon as I requested the dealership look at my Pilot. I stated they never truly drove it for the problem, nor did they put the car on a lift. Case manager responded he spoke with the service manager and this was the result. I replied that the service manager probably went off the service ticket and didn't remember my car specifically. Since the service writer pushed me out the door with the torque converter response who's to know what the cause is since they never drove with me or put it on a lift? I also said that my expectation is that my car should drive as other '13 Pilots. Because it doesn't it's a PROBLEM.

Case manager said that there's nothing else he could do. I replied if Honda states this is "normal" then I'd like to see the the documentation from the engineers that researched this issue and claimed "it's normal". Response "that's confidential and internal". I then asked about long term impact as well as resale value. Response "your car doesn't have a problem". I then asked to speak to his supervisor. Response "I'm the last person you can speak with". I then said "really? you're going to make me jump through hoops to speak with someone else?". Response "I'm the last person you can speak with". I then managed to get an address to mail a letter to.

More interesting....

I hang up with Honda's case manager and call the dealership to speak with service manager. He's been great up to this point. I tell him what transpired with the case manager and he asks again what my complaint was. I said vibration/rumbling, etc.. He asks who told me torque converter then states my problem is probably motor mounts and to bring the car in next week.

One and a half hours later the case manager calls. Bothered by our discussion he spoke with some people and said a Honda regional rep will be at the dealership next week. He wants me to bring the car in and speak with this person. Fine.

I then go on to discuss how one service writer has impacted all of us, me, service manager, case manager, etc... because she chose to provide lip service rather than follow the proper protocol. I explained that she turned me away for my squeaking dash claiming the problem would have to get worse because while they hear it they cannot determine where it's coming from. I told him that I went to the dealership and navigated around her to the service manager. He said drop off on Monday. They fixed it. Case manager now understands my frustration and the service writer will get an earful from me when I visit the dealership next week.

Stay tuned....

[WNY PAT]

I feel it in my VCMed Pilot and never in my non-VCM Ridgeline. Annoying at times, noticeable for sure and sub par for a $35,000 vehicle. Not enough to make me want to sell it and it's still a great family vehicle and a good value for the size / price. IMO anyway.