Valve Lifter Noise

[lexar940]

I have a 2007 Pilot with approx 82,000 miles. Recently, it has developed a very loud valve noise on start up in the morning. A mechanic whom I trust thinks it's a lifter.
What is so vexing is that it does not occur every day. It can be cold or hot weather, it doesn't matter. As the engine warms up it goes away.
This strikes me as odd for a Honda to develop this at 81K.
Opinions? What to do?
Thanks,
Alx

[whizmo]

Our cars don't have hydraulic lifters, so the usual diagnosis of a hydraulic valve lifter not "pumping up" doesn't play.

Deeper-pitched knocking noises that slowly go away are often piston slap due to worn bores. If the noise is more higher-pitched (e.g., better described as "tapping" rather than "knocking"), then I'd suspect excessive valve clearance.

The valve adjustment interval is 105K, but 82K is certainly the point where you could have it checked. If the noise isn't bad and goes away quickly, I'd tend to just drive it and see what develops. I owned a Nissan Pathfinder for six-years that had light valve noise during warmup from new - it never changed and was running fine when I sold it with 100K miles.

- Mark

[lexar940]

Thanks very much! What are your thoughts about why it doesn't do this all the time.
Some mornings it's as quiet as the day I bought it...more or less for a 6 yr old car.

[Yahooligan]

Are you using a Honda oil filter or an aftermarket filter? Did this noise develop shortly after a recent oil change?

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[lexar940]

That's interesting. It did happen fairly soon after an oil change, not at a Honda dealer for the first time.
My auto shop where I always took older cars and trust implicitly, thought dirt might have been kicked up and it would pass. It did not, even after another oil change, at the same shop. And, I doubt they would have used a Honda filter. It's possible, though, it's a first class shop. What accounts for it not happening daily, but regularly.
Are you suggesting that it is the filter and should I get it changed ASAP by Honda?
Thanks,
Alex

[Yahooligan]

You don't necessarily have to use a Honda filter, but cheap filters like Fram are notorious for their leak down and causing valve train noise on startup due to their poor quality anti drainback valves.

I would suggest having a good quality filter (Bosch, Honda, Mobil 1, Purolator) installed and see if the noise goes away.

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[KKL]

Originally Posted by Yahooligan

You don't necessarily have to use a Honda filter, but cheap filters like Fram are notorious for their leak down and causing valve train noise on startup due to their poor quality anti drainback valves....

Drain back is not a factor in the Pilot. The oil filter is installed upside down in a near vertical position.

[Yahooligan]

Originally Posted by KKL

Drain back is not a factor in the Pilot. The oil filter is installed upside down in a near vertical position.

Position doesn't prevent siphoning. I'm sure you're aware that you can drain water out of a bottle whose opening is at the top.

That said, if the noise doesn't stop within 1-2 seconds of startup then drainback isn't the issue. Based on the OP's post, it's on the order of minutes.

OP, what oil did the shop use? Did they put 5w30 or 10w30 in instead of 5w20 or 0w20? Some Honda owners have reported noise coming from the valve train until warm, or at least lasting longer than "normal", if they don't use an Xw20 oil. Since you say this didn't really start until after the first non-Honda oil change I would check and see what the independent shop did differently. Or, next oil change, have Honda do it and see if the noise goes away.

First thing I do whenever one of my vehicles starts acting differently is figure out what, if anything, changed recently and how it could have an effect.

In this case, it sounds like the shop is using something that your engine doesn't like, be it the filter or the oil itself.

[jamesgarner83]

No hydraulic lifters on a Pilot they have mechanical valves. Valve lash may be a little loose this is adjustable but I would doubt it with only 82k miles. I would not worry about it unless it gets worse, or gets hard too start. Slappy valves are happy valves. When valve lash is too tight that's when you can develop major problem. You may also want to check your plugs. I had a ticking noise in the head of my mazda protege and it turned out to be a bad plug(electrode was loose).

[lexar940]

Thanks everyone for great info and food for thought. First, I'm going back to Honda for oil change. I don't need one for another 1500 miles but I'm there on Wednesday.
Second, It lasts for several minutes, at least to warm up, but I still don't understand why it does not occur everyday. Does that clue point to a cause?
Happy New Year to All

[lexar940]

To follow up on the oil comment by Yahooligan...Looking at receipt just now it was indeed 5W30 oil.

[xGS]

Originally Posted by Yahooligan

You don't necessarily have to use a Honda filter, but cheap filters like Fram are notorious for their leak down and causing valve train noise on startup due to their poor quality anti drainback valves.

I would suggest having a good quality filter (Bosch, Honda, Mobil 1, Purolator) installed and see if the noise goes away.

There are at least three different grades of FRAM filters available - are you condemning all of them?

Also, the standard Honda filter is now made by FRAM and appears to be identical to the middle grade Tough Guard filter.

[Yahooligan]

Originally Posted by xGS

There are at least three different grades of FRAM filters available - are you condemning all of them?

I've had enough issues with Fram filters that I won't put them on my vehicles. If Honda wants to put a Honda-branded Fram filter on during their service then that's their choice, I'd much rather use a better filter but I've had noise and oil-leak related issues on other vehicles under warranty and the dealer wouldn't diagnose the problem until I put a factory filter on the vehicle. If the problem still existed then they would take care of whatever the problem was, so as long as my vehicles have a warranty they get factory oil filters, as crappy as they may be.

Also, the standard Honda filter is now made by FRAM and appears to be identical to the middle grade Tough Guard filter.

Which is unfortunate, I've actually looked at the cut-away of one of the "Honda" filters at the dealer and it wasn't even the mid-grade Tough Guard, at least as far as I could tell. It had cardboard end-caps glued on, which I thought was only done with the cheapest Fram line. If they do that with the Tough Guard too...well...yuck.

I'm sure any filter you can buy meets mfr requirements, but that doesn't always say much.

Happy new year!

[lexar940]

New info regarding this issue... I had Honda change the oil and filter today and discussed this at length with a mechanic kind enough to hash this whole thing out. He agreed, it could be the change in oil but could also be something else. On cold start-up the noise was there, I grabbed the mechanic who listened and seemed quite sure that it was a timing belt tensioner. Strongly suggested changing the belt, tensioner and all that comes with that, i.e. water pump, seals, etc. Am I risking bigger problems by waiting closer to the 105K belt change recommendation? I'm at 85550.
Thanks
Alexander

[robs]

When the timing belt tensioner goes out it will sound like your motor is ready to blow up. It's a deep knocking noise coming from the lower end. You will piss off you neighbors with how loud it sounds. Rev the motor and if the noise goes away at a specific rpm, then it's the tensioner

Run some cleaner through the motor to clean up the valves. Something like Seafoam, BG Engine flush, or even some ATF in the oil will clear out the oil passage. Get a valve lash adjustment.