08 Pilot 4wd Lx in the snow

[qwikz74]

So I traded my 07 Sierra Z71 in for this thing because I listined to my wife but im kinda of regretting it now,I dont like how it drives on snow or ice and yes I have snow tires on.

I have always owned real 4x4 trucks and SUV's,by real I mean rear wheel drives so maybe im not used to this thing. I hate that fwd plowing effect it has when turning until the rear kicks in but by then sometimes its to late where as with a rear drive the back would swing out but quickly track straight again once I backed off the gas.Also this thing drinks as much gas as my full size pick up did but gets less kms per tank,im averaging 450ish kms on $80.00!!

Dont get me wrong,its a nice SUV but when your used to a truck with a conventional rear drivetrain it gets hard getting in a FWD

Now on to my question......lol
Yesterday we got dumped on and it froze overnight.Went out today and was plowing and sliding around corners.I turned off the VSA and it seemed to help.Can I drive it like this or does having it off affect other things?

As much as we like the Pilot,it might have a short future in our household.

[shaggymatt]

My 2007 Pilot FWD (same body style) was HORRIBLE in the snow. Worst car I ever drove in the snow bad. I even posted another thread in here, it was the sole reason I got rid of it.

I did the same thing, turned off traction control and it helped, there were little hills where I'd get passed with my new Michelin Xice 2 snow tires by cars on all season radials.

The engine is too far back in that body design, there isn't enough weight over the front wheels.

I replaced my '07 with a '12 4wd. Of course we haven't had any snow yet, but the engine is centered more directly over the shock towers now.

[qwikz74]

Shaggymatt,yes I remember reading your post.
I couldnt get my Sierra to slide or fishtail even if I tried and that was with the 4x4 off!! I was ALOT more confident driving in snow with it.I live in the country and roads dont get cleaned right away,sometimes for days.Im not impressed so far.

[carguy07]

What tires are you running?

[qwikz74]

Originally Posted by carguy07

What tires are you running?

BF Goodrich Winter Slaloms.My wife suggested the tires too but these things got high reviews.

Still snowing good out there,went to the bank after supper and parking lot exit has a slight incline,stupid thing just sat there and spun the tires and then the back started kicking out all while the VSA was flickering like crazy.

Then pulled into Costco to grab some gas and almost slid into an island.
Im by no mean a lead footer,but this thing is garbage in bad weather.
Our Caravan handles snow better! Tonight was it,going to look at some trucks tommorrow!!

[carguy07]

Originally Posted by qwikz74

BF Goodrich Winter Slaloms.My wife suggested the tires too but these things got high reviews.

Still snowing good out there,went to the bank after supper and parking lot exit has a slight incline,stupid thing just sat there and spun the tires and then the back started kicking out all while the VSA was flickering like crazy.

Then pulled into Costco to grab some gas and almost slid into an island.
Im by no mean a lead footer,but this thing is garbage in bad weather.
Our Caravan handles snow better! Tonight was it,going to look at some trucks tommorrow!!

I would have to question the tires. My MDX with Firestone Winterforce tires has been phenomenal. I seem to disagree with a lot of reviewers on tires. Most people seem to think Blizzaks are gold and the ones I have driven on sucked compared to the Firestones.

[jl_ss]

Originally Posted by carguy07

I would have to question the tires. My MDX with Firestone Winterforce tires has been phenomenal. I seem to disagree with a lot of reviewers on tires. Most people seem to think Blizzaks are gold and the ones I have driven on sucked compared to the Firestones.

Not sure what yr MDX you have, but our MDX came with the Michelin CTs. Replacing those really helped winter handling.

[qwikz74]

Found this on a CRV forum,some interesting info on the VSA system.

vsa off

[shaggymatt]

Originally Posted by carguy07

I would have to question the tires. My MDX with Firestone Winterforce tires has been phenomenal. I seem to disagree with a lot of reviewers on tires. Most people seem to think Blizzaks are gold and the ones I have driven on sucked compared to the Firestones.

I had terrible performance with the original all season Michelin's (don't remember what they were), Michelin Xice2 (top rated snow/ice tire), and a new set of Michelin LTX MS/2. The last two are highly rated in snow performance on TireRack. Reviewers are one thing, but when you have millions of miles of consumer reviews on a tire, like you find on TireRack, that becomes hard to dispute.

I still 100% stand behind the fact that the engine, in the Pilot, is too far back from providing enough weight over the front wheels to provide sufficient traction.

[qwikz74]

Sad to report,the Pilot is a fantatic SUV but wasnt for me.
Traded it in yesterday for a F150.

[rocky]

Could see that coming. No mo Chevys then I guess?


Sent from my Autoguide iPhone app

[Da Man]

Originally Posted by shaggymatt

My 2007 Pilot FWD (same body style) was HORRIBLE in the snow. Worst car I ever drove in the snow bad. I even posted another thread in here, it was the sole reason I got rid of it.

I did the same thing, turned off traction control and it helped, there were little hills where I'd get passed with my new Michelin Xice 2 snow tires by cars on all season radials.

The engine is too far back in that body design, there isn't enough weight over the front wheels.

I replaced my '07 with a '12 4wd. Of course we haven't had any snow yet, but the engine is centered more directly over the shock towers now.

Your statement about the engine location makes absolutely no sense. First off, having sat under a pilot doing maintinence for years, this engine cannot be anymore over the front wheels. I would argue too far with the amount of under steer it attains at times. The front tires can become severely overwhelmed.

Secondly, as far as turning VSA off and attaining better traction, that's simply due to Honda nannying another vehicle in their line-up. Manufacturers like Honda always target their vehicles to under steer for safety, usually to a detriment when driving spiritedly or in very inclement conditions.

Third, as any rally driver will tell you, optimal handling comes from proper loading of all 4 tires to evenly distribute the weight vs available traction . Placing more weight over the front wheels merely forces them to do more work and leaves the rears simply 'along for the ride'. While I've found my 2005 to under steer with VSA on, simply turning it off and driving more aggressively with the throttle confirms that the issue in the snow is one of electrical safeguards and not one of inherently unbalanced design.

And, no, I have never needed or used snow tires (I live in MN - we see it here regularly).

The pilot may have a lot of faults, but weight distribution isn't one of them. I would suggest looking at your tires and driving style closer. Also, an alignment problem cause you to have handling and traction problems mimicking a tire or traction problem.

[shaggymatt]

Originally Posted by Da Man

Your statement about the engine location makes absolutely no sense. First off, having sat under a pilot doing maintinence for years, this engine cannot be anymore over the front wheels. I would argue too far with the amount of under steer it attains at times. The front tires can become severely overwhelmed.

First you have an '05. The Pilot was redesigned slightly in '06, my statement was MY theory regarding weight placement on an '07. I didn't tear the car apart to weigh precise weight distribution. It is quite possible that subtle differences changed the under hood layout from your '05 to the '06+ line. Somewhere around 60% of the vehicle weight is placed over the front tires.

If you don't have enough weight over the wheels, traction will be compromised. As power is applied to any vehicle, increased weight is transferred to the rear, essentially "lifting" the front end of the vehicle. This is why sports/racing cars typically aren't FWD. It's simple physics.

Originally Posted by Da Man

Secondly, as far as turning VSA off and attaining better traction, that's simply due to Honda nannying another vehicle in their line-up. Manufacturers like Honda always target their vehicles to under steer for safety, usually to a detriment when driving spiritedly or in very inclement conditions.

Correct, all (okay 95%) FWD vehicles inherently understeer. It's easier for drivers with minimal experience to correct. You can dial in a FWD vehicle to oversteer through sway bars and strut towers. There's no point in a Pilot, it's a SUV. I've never pushed the Pilot to an understeer condition, I'm not an agressive driver.

Originally Posted by Da Man

Third, as any rally driver will tell you, optimal handling comes from proper loading of all 4 tires to evenly distribute the weight vs available traction . Placing more weight over the front wheels merely forces them to do more work and leaves the rears simply 'along for the ride'. While I've found my 2005 to under steer with VSA on, simply turning it off and driving more aggressively with the throttle confirms that the issue in the snow is one of electrical safeguards and not one of inherently unbalanced design.

Any race car driver, not limited to rally, will tell you something similar. When I raced, I had a set of scales to corner balance the car, and adjust my coilovers accordingly, based on my weight in the driver seat.

My '07 was more than a electrical/traction control issue, seems that the OP's '08 which was the vintage exhibited the issues as me. Even with my traction control off, snow travel on anything but flat roads was next to impossible.

Heck here is a post of someone who totalled their '08 in snow because the back end fishtailed so badly: Honda Pilot in the Snow - Car Forums - Edmunds

And yes, the Honda traction control on my '07 was terribly intrusive. In less than a second, if it didn't find traction, it completely cut throttle, leaving you in a potentially dangerous situation.

Originally Posted by Da Man

And, no, I have never needed or used snow tires (I live in MN - we see it here regularly).

There's a reason they make a tire for every road condition. You may (eventually) get yourself started without snow tires, but you're braking distances are increased without them. It's a hazard to others on the road. Personally I wish that any vehicle on the road was required to have them in the winter. Further, once you go under 40 degrees, winter tires offer increased grip, even on bare pavement.

Originally Posted by Da Man

The pilot may have a lot of faults, but weight distribution isn't one of them. I would suggest looking at your tires and driving style closer. Also, an alignment problem cause you to have handling and traction problems mimicking a tire or traction problem.

Had nothing to do with my driving style. My tires always came off my Pilot with perfect wear. I'm probably one of the more anal retentive drivers/maintenance people out there given my past. For tires, I check my tire pressures weekly, rotate every 5k miles, and measure tread depths. Your tires tell you a lot about your vehicle.

But then again, like I said, I'm not an engineer, but I strongly feel that there is a weight distribution issue with that vintage.

[Da Man]

Couple of quick points to correct your assumptions and help you out-

-The '06 redesign to the power train was minimal (as, frankly, was the rest of the car). The transfer case was detached and given it's own reservoir, but if you look under the vehicle the placement of parts it is more/less correct. So the argument that an 06 is different is false.

-A quick check shows that weight distribution increased by 1% (could be a rounding error) for the front for the 2006 model (57/43) from the 2005 model, so if anything, I should be having a slightly harder time, which I'm not.

-Also, the wheelbase between the 2005 and 2006 models remained unchanged, so in all reality, we're comparing apples to apples.

-You state your 2007 was more of a traction control issue, so the weight distro/Pilot design claim is a non-sequitor. Also, perusing several front-drive based SUVs on the internet shows most carry a similar payload arrangement. I once again caution you to have you alignment checked. Any competent vehicle dynamics expert will tell you if two vehicles are of similar or same wheelbase, track, and weight/weight distribution composition, a handling discrepency generally points to incorrect tire application, uneven/incorrect tire pressure, or an alignment problem. It is a distinct possibility that the compliance bushings on your front lower control arms are worn and under a lateral or front load are allowing a few degrees of deflection. The age of both of our Pilots makes this a possibility. An alignment rack alone wouldn't show this. Something more like a Hunter or similar alignment rack with the capability to add road forces and analyze corner weight is imperative (also, the operator experience is key in this arena).

-As far as snow tires, I've driven for 20 years now without them. Making a broad-based claim that everyone should be required to have them is a little far-fetched. Let's be honest-billions of trips take place annually in the snow, and the accident rate is still low enough that some Nader-esque person or group hasn't made the call you have. While that's merely analogous, I still have traversed safely by merely monitoring my stopping distance and driving within the relative limits nature has chosen to impose that day. They also make tires for my weekend driver that are just barely DOT legal tires with regards to wear ratings, rubber compound, and tread depth, but I find on the autocross tracks it's the fleshy, squidgy bit behind the wheel that makes the difference, not the depth of wallet or amount of non-stamndard factory equipment.

-After posting I went out on a 20 minute drive yesterday to attempt to recreate your complaints and issues. I couldn't. In what amounted to a mix of 40% hard pack snow, 40% ice, and 20% clean blacktop, I found that, yes, the traction control is intrusive. It's a Honda. Having owned several, I will quickly attest that as the company becomes ever more mature, they make their vehicles ever more neutered with regards to handling and stability actuation thresholds. One needs to only have owned several of their ATVs to see their attorneys continually play a much larger role in over-all vehicle 'safety'.

Which all still points back to the person behind the wheel. The Honda Pilot has sold in large enough numbers to definitely have exposed any design faults. There are 5 on my 20 house street alone, and none of them to this point have started careening down the street unsafely towards an infant in the stroller or large propane tanks causing fiery death. Two of them, however, have been replaced - with new ones.

[rocky]

Lets never forget the Pilot AWD system only operates in AWD for brief moments in time.
With every vehicle, its the nut behind the wheel that determines how the journey goes.

So when you stick the car into drive, make sure your brain is switched on as well.

And be careful out there!