Pilot Camper Towing

[salguod]

Hello all, I'm new to the forum and considering 'downgrading' to a used Pilot from our 2010 Saturn Outlook. The Outlook replaced our 1999 Odyssey when was a great vehicle and mostly served us well up to 203K miles.

We bought a pop up camper toward the end of the Ody's life (started towing at about 180K!) and though it performed OK (even in the WV mountains), it never seemed happy. The PUP is 1700 lbs empty, but with the 5 of us, dog, 4 bikes and gear I'm betting our weight is closer to 3K lbs.

The Outlook has been great thus far and tows fantastic. No complaints, but we are reconsidering our budget and the effects of over 4 years of frozen wages and rising costs and thinking maybe an older vehicle with a smaller payment might be a good idea. Since we'll be buying something with ~100K to start, I'm thinking Honda or Toyota.

Anyhow, looking around here and I'm finding a fair amount about towing, but am I right in seeing that the early Pilots had different tow ratings for boats vs. everything else? It's 4500 / 3500, is that right? If so, that's no better than my Odyssey and I'll likely look else where as it seems the early Pilots aren't good choices for towing, aside from boats. I'd like something rated around 5000 lbs ideally. The Outlook is 5200.

Thanks folks!

Here are an image of the Outlook with the camper to give you an idea of what we tow:

[1YESfan]

Doesn't sound like a "downgrade" to me but maybe that's just me. ;-)

Why not buy a Hummer, they've dropped faster than Saturns and you can tow a bigger trailer.

[salguod]

LOL, that's why I put downgrade in quotes. Not a downgrade to a lesser vehicle, but a downgrade to an older vehicle. Poor choice of words I guess.

I looked at the newer Pilot when we were looking at SUVs, but the lack of cargo space behind the third row, less towing capability (4,500 vs. 5,200) and the requirement of AWD to get the max. towing pointed my toward the GMs. My Saturn is a really nice truck, GM hit the sweet spot of space, capability and MPG, at least for our needs anyway.

[1YESfan]

I will admit the recommended towing for Pilots is somewhat limited but I don't mind not hitting the gas sations as often either.;-) 4500 lbs is top weight rated for the 9-11s 4x4s, less for the regular awds. I think almost all the earlier models have built-in tran.s coolers (but the 12s you have to get the 4x4 models). I think you would be fine with a Pilot and looking at something with 100,000 miles I think you are correct in your choice of a Japanese brand versus sinking in some repair dough for a domestic brand.

[Raymond_12000]

I just bougt an 07 and put a hitch on it and took our 84 Starcraft (2000 Lbs dry) and the pilot pulled without hardly any effort. I then put 3 adults in the back seat and measured the hight of the hitch dropped only 1 inch + 1.5 drop with the tongue weight and everything looked very level. I was impressed because the Windstar I had dropped almost 4 inches. Good springs put into the Honda for sure. Ive been waiting for years to haul out to the East Coast with a dependable vehicle. Im not sure if Im going to install a transmission cooler yet though. Good luck.

[jonaz]

You would be better off buying something other than a Pilot if you plan on towing. For example, I regularly get 9-10mpg towing my little trailer. Anything with a V8 will get the same, and it wont work as hard. Remember, you are limited to 3500lbs towing a travel trailer- which is about right. I tow in the mountains often, and there are a few steep roads where I am down to 10mph with it floored. I would go with a Toyota Sequoia, Nissan Pathfinder, or Toyota 4runner which should give you more choices when picking out a travel trailer.

[salguod]

That's what I thought. 3500 isn't much, the Odyssey and most other minivans are rated the same.

A 4Runner or Sequoia are also on my list along with the Ridgeline and Mitsubishi Montero Sport. All but the Sequoia don't have a 3rd row and with 3 teenage girls, that's pretty nice. May just stick it out with the Outlook too, I really do like it.

[whizmo]

Have you really penciled out what the potential savings are from the "downgrade" when you consider all the costs? You've endured the big depreciation years for your Outlook and while a 100K older-Pilot will be depreciation slower than the Outlook, the differences won't be much, especially since the value of the Outlook is beat down right now with its "orphan" status.

Maintenance costs will go up for the not-under-warranty older vehicle, perhaps dramatically if your luck isn't good on the high-mileage Pilot. And there are always costs when you sell a vehicle and buy another, depending on what kind of deals you can swing, as well as costs in most states associated with licensing, taxes, etc.

All in all, I'd have difficulty believing the cost savings could possibly be worth the hassle and increased risks of driving an older vehicle. And I bet the Outlook tows better, not tremendously better, but better. As others have said, towing is not a strong point for the Pilot. If good towing is the goal, there are better vehicles, even in the same crossover class.

My advice: stay where you are.

- Mark

[salguod]

No, we haven't really sorted it out completely. On the surface, however, it seems that if I can pick up another vehicle for less than $15K I should be able to shave $200 or more off our monthly payment.

We bought our Outlook used (no 2010 Saturns were sold to the public, only to rental outfits) so we didn't suffer the effects of the slide in value, we benefited from it. What was likely a $38K sticker new we bought at about 6 months old and with 12k on the clock for just under $30K. I could sell it now, about 16 months later, for a bit over $26K according to KBB.

Whatever we get will likely be thirstier, but certainly not $200 per month thirstier. As far as maintenance goes, if my old Ody was any indicator, a Honda isn't much more expensive to run on the second 100K that it was in the first. I'd expect the same to be true for a Toyota. I've driven more vehicles over 100K than under, so I have experience in keeping them on the road. I tend to do most of my own maintenance and repairs, which keeps costs down as well.

So, with a top level analysis, it seems there's a modest benefit in 'downgrading'. Of course, the cheaper I can buy the replacement vehicle, the more benefit. In the end though, you may be right, the savings may not be enough to justify the hassle.

[whizmo]

Originally Posted by salguod

We bought our Outlook used (no 2010 Saturns were sold to the public, only to rental outfits) so we didn't suffer the effects of the slide in value, we benefited from it. What was likely a $38K sticker new we bought at about 6 months old and with 12k on the clock for just under $30K. I could sell it now, about 16 months later, for a bit over $26K according to KBB.

I'd go get some quotes on that Outlook before you go much further. I'd be surprised if you could get more than $20K in trade, $22K in a private party deal.

Whatever we get will likely be thirstier, but certainly not $200 per month thirstier. As far as maintenance goes, if my old Ody was any indicator, a Honda isn't much more expensive to run on the second 100K that it was in the first. I'd expect the same to be true for a Toyota. I've driven more vehicles over 100K than under, so I have experience in keeping them on the road. I tend to do most of my own maintenance and repairs, which keeps costs down as well.

$200/month? Unless your financing rates are outrageous, I would think absolute best you could hope for is to reduce your financed amount by $8K or so, and at 6%, this would be $480/yr. In addition, there is the reduction in principal payoff, but the additional you put towards the principle is at least partially repaid by the fact the Outlook is going to be worth more in a few years when you sell to get something else. What you're looking at here is the delta in depreciation rates for a 2010 vs. a 2006 (I'm guessing a 2006 would be where you'd be on a $15K/100K mile Pilot); I wouldn't think that would be more than an additional $800/yr. So figure $1280/yr total savings, or $106/month. And it doesn't take but a single big repair every year or two to completely wipe out this savings. Honda Pilots are reliable SUVs, but 100K miles is 100K miles on any vehicle and when you're N or 100K stuff tends to happen.

Like I said, this just doesn't add up to me, especially vs. the Pilot which is a downgrade in towing from what you have.

If you do decide to do this and want the best towing vehicle, I'd look at a V8 4Runner.

- Mark

[salguod]

Looking at Autotrader for 2010 Outlooks and Traverses (most similar to my Outlook), they range from just under $20K for low equipment very high miles to nearly $40K for well equipped new ones still on the lot. Most of the Outlooks are lower spec. XE models with very low miles for $27K-$28K. Mine is above average mileage but a loaded XR-L. Bottom line is if I sell it my self, asking $26K doesn't seem out of line.

I think our current loan is 5.9%, my credit union is now offering used car loans at 3.5%. Borrowing $15K ($10K less than our payoff) at 3.5% puts us at about $200 less than our current payment. I appreciate the analysis on depreciation but this is purely a monthly budget consideration here. With flat wages for over 4 years, our budget is tight now and I'm looking to make some room anywhere I can. Saving $200 or more per month is something worth looking into.

Looking on Autotrader, I see several Pilots, Sequoias, 4Runners, Monteros and even some Ridgelines under $15K with 100K-125K miles. Some are well under, even under $10K. The Pilot, however, is out because of towing. The 4Runner has now 3rd row, making things cramped for the 5 of us plus the dog. The Sequoia is bigger, harder for my wife to drive (primary driver of the Outlook), smaller on the inside and thirstier. The Ridgeline isn't the kind of vehicle we need (pickup bed instead of inside storage). The Montero is an unknown as far as reliability. Bottom line is that any other vehicle has a lot of trade offs and that, plus the hassle of selling and buying, mean just what you've said - this isn't worth it.

Confirms my conclusions from last year when we bought our Outlook - there isn't anything else out there better matched to our family's needs.

[whizmo]

Originally Posted by salguod

I appreciate the analysis on depreciation but this is purely a monthly budget consideration here. With flat wages for over 4 years, our budget is tight now and I'm looking to make some room anywhere I can. Saving $200 or more per month is something worth looking into.

Yes, I just wanted to point out that some of that $200/month (about half) is going "into the bank" in the form of a vehicle that three years from now will be worth $15K rather than $9K. Or if you are planning on keeping the vehicle indefinitely, you'd have a newer vehicle with fewer miles to continue driving for a longer period.

You sound like you've thought this out. Good luck with whatever you decide.

- Mark