High Performance Brake Upgrade Examples?

[damon129]

Has anyone put upgraded calipers or rotors? If so, have you noticed an improvement in braking?

I just got my '05 pilot (115k miles) and took it to my mechanic and he says the brakes are fine, but they just feel spongy to me. I want something that's more on/off, a bit more responsive like a sports car.

Any suggestions?

Thanks!

[1YESfan]

Steel-braided brakelines would be a start. Brakes are the weakest link on my Pilot imo but they are sufficient for how I drive on the street.

[94eg!]

Better response would be found in the form of steel lines and high-bite brake pads all around (like Axxis/PBR Ultimate).

Larger calipers would actually hurt performance by reducing the response time of the ABS computer. Plus an increase in brake torque at the front will reduce the amount of work done in the rear (upsetting brake bias).

[damon129]

So the steel brake lines, do they hold the pressure better than the OEM ones?

[N_Jay]

They take a little expansion out of the system.
I am not sure where the Pilot's brakes get their soft feel, but I doubt it is from the lines.

In the past, I have seen recommendations against using steel lines on everyday cars. Rubber lines will tell you when they are getting old by seeping, but steel lines tend to fail suddenly.

[94eg!]

Steel lines are prone to getting dust through the steel braid which can wear on the teflon hose inside. This causes leaks and requires more frequent inspections.

Some companies (Stoptech and Neuspeed) make stainless lines with an outer plastic jacket that keeps dust out of the braid so you don't have to worry about that. I doubt they make a kit for the pilot though, so you may have to search around for something compatible from another vehicle.

[Minnoe07]

I would love to see a high performance brake pad for the pilot. Even maybe an adapter to mate a larger size rotor to the caliper to improve the leverage feel front and back.

The braks are by far the worst thing on the pilot. They get the job done, but just barely.

[jcantanixon]

Originally Posted by damon129

Has anyone put upgraded calipers or rotors? If so, have you noticed an improvement in braking?

I just got my '05 pilot (115k miles) and took it to my mechanic and he says the brakes are fine, but they just feel spongy to me. I want something that's more on/off, a bit more responsive like a sports car.

Any suggestions?

Thanks!

Try having him replace the brake fluid. That might help with the pedal feel, and even if it doesn't, it's peace of mind. The recommended schedule from Honda is every 3 years, regardless of mileage..so yours should've been done twice by now.

[browning4x4EX-L]

Originally Posted by 94eg!

Steel lines are prone to getting dust through the steel braid which can wear on the teflon hose inside. This causes leaks and requires more frequent inspections.

Some companies (Stoptech and Neuspeed) make stainless lines with an outer plastic jacket that keeps dust out of the braid so you don't have to worry about that. I doubt they make a kit for the pilot though, so you may have to search around for something compatible from another vehicle.

if i still have my pilot when i start the build on my accord i will see what i can come up with. but thats gonna be at least 6 months out.i wonder what all the pilots have in common with accord if anything maybe luck up with some acura TL parts?

[Boardorgohome]

There are performance brake pads out there, i have a set of Hawk Pads on my 05 Pilot, definately more grab than the OEM pads. They arent really expensive either. So far i only have them on the front because the rears didnt need replacing.

[94eg!]

Originally Posted by Minnoe07

I would love to see a high performance brake pad for the pilot. Even maybe an adapter to mate a larger size rotor to the caliper to improve the leverage feel front and back.

The braks are by far the worst thing on the pilot. They get the job done, but just barely.

Exactly what aspect of the brake system are having a problem with?

Did you know that if you increase front brake torque the way you suggested, you will actually increase your minimum stopping distance? Increased front brake torque causes the rear brakes to be underworked. Typically, OEM brake systems are front biased already for better stability under all conditions.

This is why a standard 350z has a 10-20ft longer stopping distance when you add a Brembo Gran Turismo big-brake-kit.

[Minnoe07]

Originally Posted by 94eg!

Exactly what aspect of the brake system are having a problem with?

Did you know that if you increase front brake torque the way you suggested, you will actually increase your minimum stopping distance? Increased front brake torque causes the rear brakes to be underworked. Typically, OEM brake systems are front biased already for better stability under all conditions.

This is why a standard 350z has a 10-20ft longer stopping distance when you add a Brembo Gran Turismo big-brake-kit.

Did you notice that no where in my post did I mention front brakes only? I mentioned front and back.

The brakes on the pilot are weak. They have no initial bite, no real leverage, and the pedal does not give much feedback.

SS brake lines and a high biting pad front and back would probably do the trick nicely as well as some better gripping rubber than what comes with the pilot. But a little bit better engineering from Honda initially would be nice too.

[N_Jay]

The brakes have enough "Bite" to lock the wheels and activate the ABS.

Most ABS systems lack the feel and feedback of performance car brake systems, that does not make them any worse at doing their job. I doubt many can effectively modulate braking in an SUV with its standard suspension.

If you improve front breaking, even in addition to back braking, you can still decrease overall braking. The limit of back braking force is the traction during a hard stop. Increasing front braking only causes more weight shift, and therefore REDUCES brake brake potential not matter how good the pads are, or how big the rotors are.

[94eg!]

Originally Posted by N_Jay

The brakes have enough "Bite" to lock the wheels and activate the ABS.

Most ABS systems lack the feel and feedback of performance car brake systems, that does not make them any worse at doing their job. I doubt many can effectively modulate braking in an SUV with its standard suspension.

If you improve front breaking, even in addition to back braking, you can still decrease overall braking. The limit of back braking force is the traction during a hard stop. Increasing front braking only causes more weight shift, and therefore REDUCES brake brake potential not matter how good the pads are, or how big the rotors are.

1st, I don't think your going to convince him.

2nd, that's not true. The OEM braking system is already forward biased for the sake of braking stability under all circumstances. There is NOTHING you can do to get the front tires to do any more work than they already do, since they are the ones that lock 1st and go into ABS. With a given set of tires, you will be unable to transfer any more weight to the front wheels than you already do. Therefore you can only increase the amount of work the rear tires do to shorten stopping distances. This will cause a slight increase in weight transfer to the front, and that's why the adjustment in brake torque must be made within reason.

And yes installing stickier tires increases your rear bias because more weight will shift to the front tires under hard braking. In addition to the added traction, increased rear bias is another reason why stickier tires help you to stop sooner.

Here is more than you ever wanted to know about brake bias:

White Paper - Brake Bias and Performance- Why Brake Balance Matters

[Minnoe07]

Originally Posted by N_Jay

The brakes have enough "Bite" to lock the wheels and activate the ABS.

Maybe "bite" is not a universal term, but to me, it is the initial response you get when you first apply the brakes. No, I am not talking about locking up the wheels (or activate ABS) with full brake pedal operation. Every car can do that. "Bite" is what inspires confidence in your braking. Consistency in modulation also helps inspire confidence.

Just because I may not know exactly what Honda would have had to have done to get better "bite" or shorter stopping distances out of the Pilot (And I realize this is an SUV), doesn't mean I don't know that the brakes and the feel of the brakes are the worst handling dynamic of the car and that Honda could have done a better job. I've driven enough cars to know good vehicle dynamics.

To me, it seems as though they did their homework half ass and just slapped some Accord brakes on the Pilot, re-did some biasing, and called it a day. Sure the Accord brakes are good, but not on a Pilot. (Not literally saying that it is what they did.)

Originally Posted by N_Jay

Most ABS systems lack the feel and feedback of performance car brake systems, that does not make them any worse at doing their job. I doubt many can effectively modulate braking in an SUV with its standard suspension.

If you improve front breaking, even in addition to back braking, you can still decrease overall braking. The limit of back braking force is the traction during a hard stop. Increasing front braking only causes more weight shift, and therefore REDUCES brake brake potential not matter how good the pads are, or how big the rotors are.

Almost all cars now come with ABS. And among them are performance cars. Are you saying that new performance cars do not have feel and feedback? And if you mean by "job" as just stopping the car, sure all brakes do their "job", but what if their "Job" also includes giving the driver feedback? A lot of good brake systems do this, and it doesn't take a sports car to do it.

And you assume that the majority of people just don't know how to brake an SUV with standard suspension? Kind of a gross blanket statement there. Maybe you don't know how to, but I do enough performance track days, autocrosses, and HP driving events to know how to threshold brake, even in an SUV.

Also, you aren't considering that increasing front braking also increases the front footprint of the tires, which equals more traction. There is obviously a limit to this and that may or may not have been reached with the Pilot. I don't know. On the other aspect, through suspension work, if the weight transfer wasn't so great, than the back brakes could do more work in the end.

Just a few thoughts.