E85 Ethanol

[Carol Hagy]

Has anyone heard if Honda is coming out with a Pilot that will be E85 compatible? I've read that E85 conversion kits are not approved by the EPA and are very difficult to install.

[N_Jay]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85

Good reading

[Sportymonk]

Originally posted by N_Jay
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85

Good reading

From N_Jay's link

After-market conversions
After-market conversion kits, for converting standard engines to operate on E85, are generally not legal in U.S. states subject to emissions controls, unless the converted vehicle is independently EPA certified. This is despite the fact that the exhaust emissions from any such converted cars are improved by utilizing higher percentages of ethanol in the gasoline blend. Unfortunately, EPA certification costs in excess of $23,000 and requires proof that the vehicle will maintain low emissions for at least 50,000 miles after the conversion. Most individuals won't give up their vehicles for the requisite 50,000 mile test period. Ethanol can be made out of pretty much anything grown on a farm and of what livestock eat. Likewise, conversion kit manufacturers generally don't certify their kits due to the onerous and expensive burden of these laws. The kits would have to be tested with every model vehicle for which they are to be sold. If a kit is already certified as described, the EPA Federal Test Procedure for an individual's conversion costs $750. One can request a reduction of payment of down to 1% of the car's added retail value due to the conversion. A minimum fee may apply if the value added is not seen to be very high.
Similarly, U.S. Federal law prohibits the manufacture of many such conversion kits for sale in the U.S. unless they are EPA certified. The origin of this ban dates to when conversion kits for using compressed natural gas were originally sold. The ban was enacted to prevent the sale of such conversion kits due to safety concerns. This ban on the manufacture of kits is at odds with the fact that these kits, once existing, are legal in all states but CA, and most states offer some sort of tax break for converting your vehicle

Just about kills it.

[dgipalo]

Originally posted by Carol Hagy
Has anyone heard if Honda is coming out with a Pilot that will be E85 compatible? I've read that E85 conversion kits are not approved by the EPA and are very difficult to install.

The actual conversion is relatively straight-forward. The following are impacted components:

1. ECU programming and ability to take fuel sensor input. Indirect strategies are possible, but a nasty back-door hack.
2. Fuel type sensor (detects percentage of ethanol in the mix), so you can tolerate and run on a varitety of mixes.
3. Injectors - they'll need to flow more 'cause the ratios are lower with E85. May also have durability problems with some injectors due to different fuel characteristics.
4. Fuel system materials, especially fuel pump and lines
5. Evap controls, including most likely tolerance for higher fuel tank pressures. Vapor pressure is typically higher in ethanol blends.

Process is to have the ECU detect the alcohol blend in the fuel, and adjust timing and injector volume appropriately. The ratio for E85 will need to be lower in order to get good emissions and combustion characteristics, and you will typically be able to/need to run a bit more timing because the stuff burns slower. As an end-user conversion, the biggest issue is getting the ECU programming right, and maybe some issues with fuel system materials (possibly leading to early fuel pump failures, injector problems, or fuel system corrosion). Bottom line: easy enough to do as a manufacturer, but damn near impossible to cost-justify as an aftermarket conversion due to components involved.

This month's Car&Driver has a 'end-user perspective' article on the fuel. Bottom line: unless you're paying at least 30% less for E85, it's a raw deal because you'll burn more. Alcohol is right now running higher than gasoline on the spot market due to supply and demand crunches.

Turbo engines are a possible exception, because they will be able to run more boost with less timing retard without detonating. Most other engines won't be able to run on 'regular' fuel and E85 without major compromises in respective perfmroance.

[jdeanski]

I saw today an article where ethanol is now running over $4.00 a gallon!!! So much for cheap corn!!

[N_Jay]

Originally posted by jdeanski
I saw today an article where ethanol is now running over $4.00 a gallon!!! So much for cheap corn!!

Wait till all the Yellow/Green GMs get out there and our eating corn starts going up.

$3 a gallon for gas is one thing, but when my corn hits $5 a dozen, I am REALLY going to be pissed!

[rocky]

GM= Corn Guzzlers?????

What does this mean for the price of corn flakes?

Brazil went E85 decades ago-but the vehicle has to be built for it. Some boat owners have fibre glass fuel tanks have discovered E85 has eaten their tank-requiring replacement- but to replace their fuel tank the boat has to be disassembled to get to it. Lots of unhappy boat owners out there apparently

[N_Jay]

Originally posted by rocky

Brazil went E85 decades ago . . .

I'm hearing the Brazil story is a big fib.

Total ethanol use is still insignificant and most of Brazil's "amazing" energy independence is due to its domestic OIL production.

[vida]

Originally posted by N_Jay


Wait till all the Yellow/Green GMs get out there and our eating corn starts going up.

$3 a gallon for gas is one thing, but when my corn hits $5 a dozen, I am REALLY going to be pissed!

Field corn and sweet corn are two different things.

[jay]

Originally posted by vida


Field corn and sweet corn are two different things.

I bet I can't digest either one.

[N_Jay]

Originally posted by vida


Field corn and sweet corn are two different things.

But the both compete for the same resources.

Therefore they will affect each others price.

[ramirami]

Originally posted by N_Jay


But the both compete for the same resources.

Therefore they will affect each others price.

actually 80% of our production is field corn.... sweet corn is only used to be used as "eating corn"....

most things made from corn...corn syrup, livestock feed etc is field corn... maybe as use of corn syrup decreases (due to health guidelines) that corn can be used

[N_Jay]

Originally posted by ramirami


actually 80% of our production is field corn.... sweet corn is only used to be used as "eating corn"....

most things made from corn...corn syrup, livestock feed etc is field corn... maybe as use of corn syrup decreases (due to health guidelines) that corn can be used

I would hazard a guess that he quantity of ethanol needed for any reasonable replacement of oil is of such a quantity that it will dwarf all other consumers and set the market price for corn crops.

[ramirami]

Originally posted by N_Jay


I would hazard a guess that he quantity of ethanol needed for any reasonable replacement of oil is of such a quantity that it will dwarf all other consumers and set the market price for corn crops.

dont underestimate our food consumption

[Bill Balmer]

Originally posted by ramirami



dont underestimate our food consumption

If it were sugar or chocolate, I'd be with you, rami. But corn? Do you really think you eat as much corn as your car would burn every day?