Hybrids and Smart Grid

[Sportymonk]

Article in USA Today http://www.usatoday.com/money/indust...terstitialskip

•Plug-in electric vehicles. Car manufacturers plan to roll out large numbers of plug-in hybrid electric vehicles in a few years. But if they all charge their batteries during the day, the grid couldn't handle the load. So cars typically will be programmed to recharge at night, when the grid is sparsely used and wind turbines are spinning furiously.

By the same token, hybrids could become mini-generating plants at midday. They could be plugged into office garage outlets, primed to feed power to the grid when prices surge, says Elliot Mainzer of Bonneville Power Administration.


GREAT- Now a new way to walk out from work and find your battery dead and the car won't start!!

The lack of a supporting infrastructure to support a mass of hybrids plugging in is a concern.

[N_Jay]

Stupid ideas abound!

Plug-in hybrids is just a new name for electric cars and the basic problems with electric cars need to be solved first for them to be successful.

[macphanatic]

Originally posted by Sportymonk
Article in USA Today http://www.usatoday.com/money/indust...terstitialskip
But if they all charge their batteries during the day, the grid couldn't handle the load.

I've been saying this for a while. Our electrical infrastructure is outdated and our generating capacity doesn't have enough capacity to handle a major shift to plug-in vehicles.

[rocky]

What I'd like to see is the Civic Hybrid as its currently made, merged with the the Civic GX, the CNG powered Civic.

Now that would be a pretty darned clean car!

[robrecht]

Originally posted by N_Jay
Stupid ideas abound!

Plug-in hybrids is just a new name for electric cars and the basic problems with electric cars need to be solved first for them to be successful.

Obviously, there's still lots of work to be done, but having an onboard generator is a great step forward in extending the range of serial hybrid electric cars. I'm told some kind of gas turbine generator might be a more efficient way of generating electricity on board. Is that so?

[macphanatic]

Originally posted by robrecht
I'm told some kind of gas turbine generator might be a more efficient way of generating electricity on board. Is that so?

Absolutely. A turbine is much more efficient. Until recently, the majority of turbines were way too big to put in a vehicle. The other issue is that they can be extremely dangerous if they fail. When a turbine throws a blade, the results can be ugly. There are many issues with turbines that makes it a challenge to use in the consumer market.

There is a company that is building micro-turbines for use in buses. These turbines use fluid air bearings in lieu of the traditional oil bearings used in the larger turbines. This eliminates one of the maintenance challenges.

The sad thing is that this country for the most part is oblivious to the benefits of the new ultra low sulfur diesel. These newer diesel engines provide decent power and great fuel economy. My wife's uncle drives a Dodge Sprinter with the 5 cylinder Mercedes diesel. He typically has it loaded to better than 2/3 of the rated weight capacity, mixed driving conditions and is averaging 26 mpg. Doing something in a Pilot could put it in the 30+ mpg range.

[N_Jay]

Originally posted by robrecht
Obviously, there's still lots of work to be done, but having an onboard generator is a great step forward in extending the range of serial hybrid electric cars. I'm told some kind of gas turbine generator might be a more efficient way of generating electricity on board. Is that so?

I do not believe that for small engines, turbines are any more efficient than ICEs.

I am fairly sure they are less efficient.

My understanding is that their use in power generation is for size, and fast start reasons, and not for efficiency reasons, even at that scale.

Just put a Honda camping generator in teh trunk of your hybrid! LOL

[macphanatic]

Originally posted by N_Jay


I do not believe that for small engines, turbines are any more efficient than ICEs.

I am fairly sure they are less efficient.

My understanding is that their use in power generation is for size, and fast start reasons, and not for efficiency reasons, even at that scale.
LOL

Whether a power plant burns coal, gas, or oil, they are using a turbine to convert this energy to mechanical energy to turn a generator. The original gas peaking units used to provide instantaneous power to the grid were large diesel generators. Most were replaced over the years with package gas turbines. The reason was that the gas turbines were more efficient.

The traditional ICE has to be the most inefficient form of power generation. Each piston momentarily stops at TDC. The crankshaft may continue to turn, but the piston stops. How long will an ICE continue to rotate when fuel is removed? Cut steam or gas off to a turbine and it will continue to spin for several minutes or more.

[N_Jay]

Originally posted by macphanatic


Whether a power plant burns coal, gas, or oil, they are using a turbine to convert this energy to mechanical energy to turn a generator. The original gas peaking units used to provide instantaneous power to the grid were large diesel generators. Most were replaced over the years with package gas turbines. The reason was that the gas turbines were more efficient.

The traditional ICE has to be the most inefficient form of power generation. Each piston momentarily stops at TDC. The crankshaft may continue to turn, but the piston stops. How long will an ICE continue to rotate when fuel is removed? Cut steam or gas off to a turbine and it will continue to spin for several minutes or more.

I may have been Wwwrroo, Wwwrrrooooonnn, WWwwwrrrrroooooooonnnn, Note exactly right.

From the wiki:
---------------------------------------------------
The gas turbine is most efficient at maximum power output. Efficiency declines steadily with reduced power output and is very poor in the low power range. This is one reason, among several, why the gas turbine is not used for automobiles and trucks where much of the operating cycle is at idle and low to intermediate speeds. Detroit (General Motors) at one time tried to make a gas turbine for an automobile and gave up. This is also why gas turbines can be used for peak power electric plants. In this application they are only run at full power where they are efficient or shut down when not needed.
-----------------------------------------------
Or Not
More from Wiki:
-------------------------------------------------
Microturbine systems have many advantages over reciprocating engine generators, such as higher power density (with respect to footprint and weight), extremely low emissions and few, or just one, moving part. Those designed with foil bearings and air-cooling operate without oil, coolants or other hazardous materials. Microturbines also have the advantage of having the majority of their waste heat contained in their relatively high temperature exhaust, whereas the waste heat of recriprocating engines is split between its exhaust and cooling system.[4] However, reciprocating engine generators are quicker to respond to changes in output power requirement and are usually slightly more efficient, although the efficiency of microturbines is increasing. Microturbines also lose more efficiency at low power levels than reciprocating engines.

[robrecht]

Originally posted by N_Jay
However, reciprocating engine generators are quicker to respond to changes in output power requirement and are usually slightly more efficient ...

But it seems this one advantage is of little or no import in a serial hybrid so I'm anxious to see how work with these microturbines progresses. Not sure if I'm remembering this right but I seem to recall a turbine doing very well one year at Indy before breaking down near the end. Andy Granitelli's car IIRC. I was just a kid but remember my Dad being excited not only at how well the car did but also at the failure of a very cheap part.

[N_Jay]

Originally posted by robrecht
But it seems this one advantage is of little or no import in a serial hybrid so I'm anxious to see how work with these microturbines progresses. Not sure if I'm remembering this right but I seem to recall a turbine doing very well one year at Indy before breaking down near the end. Andy Granitelli's car IIRC. I was just a kid but remember my Dad being excited not only at how well the car did but also at the failure of a very cheap part.

We will see.

I don't think the Indy example holds much water.
I am thinking Indy was not an "efficiency" games back then.

[robrecht]

Originally posted by N_Jay


We will see.

I don't think the Indy example holds much water.
I am thinking Indy was not an "efficiency" games back then.

It was just a fond memory--not intended to support a claim about efficiency. Relax.

[N_Jay]

Originally posted by robrecht
It was just a fond memory--not intended to support a claim about efficiency. Relax.

I am relaxed.

When was that last time you say me post about the incredibly stupid going-ons of the Obama, Reid, Peloci show?

[TTK]

Originally posted by N_Jay


I may have been Wwwrroo, Wwwrrrooooonnn, WWwwwrrrrroooooooonnnn, Note exactly right.

From the wiki:
---------------------------------------------------
The gas turbine is most efficient at maximum power output. Efficiency declines steadily with reduced power output and is very poor in the low power range. This is one reason, among several, why the gas turbine is not used for automobiles and trucks where much of the operating cycle is at idle and low to intermediate speeds. Detroit (General Motors) at one time tried to make a gas turbine for an automobile and gave up. This is also why gas turbines can be used for peak power electric plants. In this application they are only run at full power where they are efficient or shut down when not needed.
-----------------------------------------------
Or Not
More from Wiki:
-------------------------------------------------
Microturbine systems have many advantages over reciprocating engine generators, such as higher power density (with respect to footprint and weight), extremely low emissions and few, or just one, moving part. Those designed with foil bearings and air-cooling operate without oil, coolants or other hazardous materials. Microturbines also have the advantage of having the majority of their waste heat contained in their relatively high temperature exhaust, whereas the waste heat of recriprocating engines is split between its exhaust and cooling system.[4] However, reciprocating engine generators are quicker to respond to changes in output power requirement and are usually slightly more efficient, although the efficiency of microturbines is increasing. Microturbines also lose more efficiency at low power levels than reciprocating engines.

I think your WIKI info is wrong about who produced the turbine car. It was Chrysler Corp that had a gas turbine car. They produced several of them and placed them in consumer hands for testing for many months. There were TV commercials in the 60's showing the performance of the car.
Scientifically, the WIKI info is correct.

[N_Jay]

Originally posted by TTK


I think your WIKI info is wrong about who produced the turbine car. It was Chrysler Corp that had a gas turbine car. They produced several of them and placed them in consumer hands for testing for many months. There were TV commercials in the 60's showing the performance of the car.
Scientifically, the WIKI info is correct.

Yes, it was Chrysler.

A friend's father had one (or was loaned one).

You had to be VERY careful walking past the exhaust.