Sport Utility Vans (GM vs Honda)

[robrecht]

With the MDX/Pilot, Honda introduced a new kind of SUV that was based on a preexisting minivan. This yields a very safe ride on the road at the expense of some off-road capability found with traditional truck based SUVs. While there were already car-based SUVs out there, these seemed lacking in a lot of utility because of their smaller size.*

Now, Detroit is finally starting to catch on with the Buick Terraza and the Saturn Relay (cf also Chevy Upplander, Pontiac Montana SV6). Check out the pics in the January issue of Auto World Magazine. Exterior styling, large and wide wheels, and AWD options, all suggest SUV. These two models are a little more in the minivan camp than the MDX/Pilot, however, because of power sliding side doors and removable 2nd and 3rd row.

Sorry, I'd post pics, but I'm on vacation, hence reading car magazines on the plane, but thought some of you might be interested.

Here's a link:
http://www.trishield.com/buick-090803a-release.shtml

*One could argue that since the Odyssey was based on an Accord, the MDX, which was based on the Odyssey, is really a car based SUV. But who wants to argue, anyway? I would still maintain, that Honda learned a lot about how to make a larger car based SUV through their experience with the Odyssey and the MDX. So, if the Pilot is car based, it seems there were a few important transitional learning steps along the way.

[ramirami]

seems like someting competing with the chrysler pacifica segment

[robrecht]

Originally posted by ramirami
seems like someting competing with the chrysler pacifica segment

I wish I could post pics from the hard copy. These appear much more like SUVs, and, like minivans, have much more utility.

[jazcar]

Didn't the original Mazda MPV have these attributes?
It must have been ahead of it's time.

[robrecht]

Originally posted by jazcar
Didn't the original Mazda MPV have these attributes?
It must have been ahead of it's time.

I didn't think the MPV offered AWD? Was it more like an SUV than other minivans or just a good minivan for it's time? Of course, the '04 Sienna now offers AWD, but it too is not likely to be mistaken for an SUV.

[jay]

Originally posted by robrecht
I didn't think the MPV offered AWD? Was it more like an SUV than other minivans or just a good minivan for it's time? Of course, the '04 Sienna now offers AWD, but it too is not likely to be mistaken for an SUV.

What is an SUV anymore? Even the Pilot's been referred to as a CUV (crossover or car-like, since it has an Accord heritage, no ladder frame like a truck, and no low gear shifter). Admittedly, it is sportier, and quicker off the line, than a Highlander. Seriously, though, who really cares as long as it fits in your lifestyle and garage?

[robrecht]

Originally posted by jay
What is an SUV anymore? Even the Pilot's been referred to as a CUV (crossover or car-like, since it has an Accord heritage, no ladder frame like a truck, and no low gear shifter). Admittedly, it is sportier, and quicker off the line, than a Highlander. Seriously, though, who really cares as long as it fits in your lifestyle and garage?

Good point. Personally, I did not want a traditional, truck-based SUV, since most of our driving is on road, but I liked the Pilot because it still has some light off-roading ability. We have a place up in the Adirondacks and good traction in snow and on some relatively rough roads is important to us. Most minivans would be a little lacking in this regard, though I did look at the AWD Sienna.

[robrecht]

Originally posted by robrecht
I didn't think the MPV offered AWD ...

... but I was wrong:

Mazda entered the fast-growing minivan field in 1989 with its rear-drive "Multi-Purpose Vehicle" featuring seating for five or seven. The 4-door MPV featured a side-opening right-rear door in place of the usual sliding door panel. A 121-horsepower 2.6-liter inline 4-cylinder engine was standard. Mazda's on-demand 4WD version came standard with the optional engine, a 150-horsepower 3.0-liter V6. http://auto.consumerguide.com/auto/u...ex.cfm/id/2066

Still, kind of underpowered.

[robrecht]

Here's a picture and brief write-up of the Buick version, the Terraza.

[robrecht]

And here's the Saturn Relay:

[shutrbug]

Hmmm, the hood lines and headlights sure look like those of the Pilot in these two GM SUVs.

[74PILOTMOM]

Yuck, but true to GM form, everything looks like an afterthought in design, trying to fit something where it doesn't belong. At least the Pilot has smooth flowing lines and beefy angles. Those things have odd shaped grilles floating in space around the nose, and the WAY too big windows are FUGLY. I smell a new Aztek lurking in the GM showrooms.

Just my usual brutally honest and offensive opinion

[ARwebpilot]

Gee, These two sure remind me much more of a mini-van than an SUV - especially since there are sliding middle doors on both sides!!! Typical of a mini-van. Definitely in the "Crossover" category. I also agree the side windows seem way out of proportion. IMHO, these look like someone mounted the front end of a Pilot and the middle of a mini-van to the tail and roofline of a Yukon. - Yuck- OH!
GM

[osteome]

The Saturn Relay and Buik Terraza (nice name ) area actually dubbed "crossover sport vans" (?CSV...I am getting tired of all of these versions of fancy van or station wagon names) that according to the most recent issue of car driver are "saddled with with a chassis that's a bit too narrow for the U.S."..... "GM is pretty much saying 'kids only' for the third row". These vans are destined to be labeled as "all-new", but apparently are based on the same chassis and floorpan of the current mininvans offered by GM. What there will NOT be: no side curtain airbags, no easy access to the third row via a tilt and slide second row (GM suggest that people will hop over the activity tray in the between the second row seats to get to the back), no power lift gate option, 7 passenger only seating, no option to open the windows on the sliding doors (can be rolled down on the new Sienna), no ability to carry 8 foot sheets with the rear hatch closed if the driver is of moderate height due to the need to position the front seats far foward, no flush folding rear seats like the Sienna, Oddysey of the Freestar. Car and Driver did think that the fit and finish was quite nice.

It does beg the question as to what an all wheel drive version of these things will price out as... If you look at the above it would appear that these vehicles offer no distinct advantage over a Pilot (200 HP from a 3.5 V6 and a 4 speed auto) generally less utility and seating, but also a few of the things that could be considered common shortcomings with a Pilot. It will probably be cheaper than a Pilot initally if GM has rebate the hell out of them to get off the lot....I highly doubt that it will hold in resale.

I am a broken record on this, but until the big three can prove that they can produce a reliable and innovative car that offers equal reliability and resale I will be shopping Honda, Toyota and Nissan. I am quite tired of their efforts being wasted on "freshening the model" (can any tell a 96 Grand Am from an 02 Grand Am at a quick glance) and not spending the money on the core of their sales (or at least should be). A $150,000 Ford GT or $50,000 limited retro Chevy pickup...great how not screwing up a Lumina or a Taurus for once that I would actually be in the market for. I hate to rant but this type of behavior and absolute lack of foresight makes me feel like the big three are getting what they deserve (bought up...err merged like Chrysler or left to offer thousands in rebates just to survive and be able to post numbers)

[Will_Pilot]

The Saturn Relish and Buick Terrcotta each look like design elements were bolted on with no "flow". The Saturn has a nose that looks like a Vulva, oops, I mean Volvo. And either vehicle has a mid window that looks like it was stolen from a skyscraper.

Do I hear $3000 factory rebates?