Hybrid Pilot: How much more would you pay?

[krygny]

Assumptions:

• 15 MPG increase in mileage.
• Similar performance, maintenance costs, and vehicle life.

Example: If you drive 20,000 miles per year and you currently get 20 mpg, you use 1,000 gallons. At $1.50/gal. that's $1500. If you got 35 mpg, you'd use 571 gallons. That's $857; a savings of $643.

Of course, there are the green aspects too.

[N_Jay]

Originally posted by krygny
Assumptions:

• 15 MPG increase in mileage.
• Similar performance, maintenance costs, and vehicle life.

Example: If you drive 20,000 miles per year and you currently get 20 mpg, you use 1,000 gallons. At $1.50/gal. that's $1500. If you got 35 mpg, you'd use 571 gallons. That's $857; a savings of $643.

Of course, there are the green aspects too.

And the non-green aspects of the batteries!

Also I would think the 15MPG gain is a bit high.
Using the Civic Hybrid as a model I would expect a 1.35 to 1.5 improvement factor which will only get you 7 to 10 MPG gain.

Also using the Civic Hybrid as a model you WILL NOT get the same performance, or maintenance costs.

Anything can sound good with bad assumptions. Just read Wired maganzine!

[krygny]

Originally posted by N_Jay
...
Anything can sound good with bad assumptions. Just read Wired maganzine!

Are you referring to a particular article, or are you talking about Wired magazine, in general? I only read it occasionally.

[N_Jay]

Originally posted by krygny

Are you referring to a particular article, or are you talking about Wired magazine, in general? I only read it occasionally.

Not every article, just the overall tone of the magazine.

In just about any issue you can find several articles that fall into that catagory.

[sski]

Hybrids are still too expensive. I did the math before using a Civic. I commute about 25,000mi a year and I think I would have keep the car something like 20yrs to break even.

[N_Jay]

Originally posted by sski
Hybrids are still too expensive. I did the math before using a Civic. I commute about 25,000mi a year and I think I would have keep the car something like 20yrs to break even.

Did you include the 3 sets of batteries you would be on by then?

You might not break even till 25 years!

Of course by then the Greenies will have instituted a "Battery Disposal Fee" on these batteries like batteries and tires today, and that will push the break even point out to, Oh about NEVER!

[GreenMachine]

Originally posted by N_Jay


Also using the Civic Hybrid as a model you WILL NOT get the same performance, or maintenance costs.

True. But what about the new hybrid Highlander? Supposed to be 270hp with the hybrid setup along with better mileage. No idea about maintenance though.

[N_Jay]

Originally posted by GreenMachine


True. But what about the new hybrid Highlander? Supposed to be 270hp with the hybrid setup along with better mileage. No idea about maintenance though.

What is the quoted MPG?

Would love to see the HP curve, which will be different in each gear with an electric assist

[GreenMachine]

What Edmunds.com Says: Economical hybrid power combined with Highlander utility should make this another hit for Toyota.

Already known for its carlike drivability and all-around usefulness, the Highlander will soon add a fuel-sipping hybrid drivetrain to its impressive list of available features. Similar in design to the system used in the Prius sedan, the Highlander's Hybrid Synergy Drive power plant was specifically designed to handle the added weight of an SUV. It combines Toyota's 3.3-liter V6 gas engine with an electric motor that boasts twice the power of the unit used in the Prius. Working together, the two engines produce a combined 270 horsepower, enough to push this Highlander to 60 miles per hour in less than 8 seconds according to Toyota. Not only that, it's also projected to get over 28 miles to the gallon in combined city and highway driving and have a range of over 600 miles. Sales are expected to begin early next year.

I was only mentioning what has been posted already. Don't know of any exact figures, but with a projected mpg rating of 28 combined, that puts in the 30's for HWY mileage with its current 19.1 gallon tank and the est'd 600 mile range. No mention if that's 2WD or AWD mileage though.

[krygny]

GreenMachine, This is all purely hypothetical. I've heard nothing substantive about a hybrid Pilot.

I'm no tree hugger, but there are other practical benefits to a hybrid vehicle. I'd pay a premium for a Pilot that gets 30-35 mpg. Saves money and allows me to go longer without gassing up.

The "common good" reasons for being green are nice, but there has to be reward for the induhvidual. I don't care for folks who try to impose their lifestyle on others. Just because someone doesn't want to smoke, own an SUV, or a gun, doesn't make them righteous enough to deny those things to someone else. If we all sacrificed our personal preferences for the common good, we wouldn't be human; we'd be Vulcans. Or bees.

So, I'll repeat my initial assumption that the vehicle's performance, reliability, maintenance costs, and life cycle are comparable. The whole deal is broken if the system is problematic or if I have to spend $800 on a new bank of batteries every 3-4 years.

[CNYGuy]

I'd buy a hybrid Pilot if it was economically worthwhile without sacrificing performance. Tree hugger benefits alone aren't enough, I need to see same reliability and power with less cost. I don't think any of the hybrids do that well yet.

[Qbrozen]

I've read that the batteries will last just as long as the drivetrain. The rumor that they need to be replaced is just that, a rumor. Anyone care to comment or have any solid sources that this is true or false?

Wish I could remember where the heck I read my info. I think it was an editorial autoweek. but I could be wrong.

And as far as "less cost." I don't care, personally. If it cost exactly the same between the 2 vehicles, I'd opt for the hybrid just because you still gain the advantage of having to stop for gas less often. Heck, I'd even pay a few bucks over the life of the vehicle EXTRA for that pleasure.

[N_Jay]

Originally posted by Qbrozen
I've read that the batteries will last just as long as the drivetrain. The rumor that they need to be replaced is just that, a rumor. Anyone care to comment or have any solid sources that this is true or false?

I have been using the 8 year 80,000 mile warranty as my basis.
It makes sense from my experiance with battery power systems.

We realy won't know till the Hybrids start aging.

Originally posted by Qbrozen
And as far as "less cost." I don't care, personally. If it cost exactly the same between the 2 vehicles, I'd opt for the hybrid just because you still gain the advantage of having to stop for gas less often. Heck, I'd even pay a few bucks over the life of the vehicle EXTRA for that pleasure.

This is the main issue. For th eforseeable future it will not cost less, it will cost MORE, so all discussion based on the assumption of a cost savings in either purchase or operating costs are irrelevent.

If range is what you want, then there are companies that can fit aux fuel tanks to many vehicles. I am sure that "over the life of the vehicle" it would not add much more than "a few bucks".
Not many people go that route! (I am guessing you have not)

[Qbrozen]

why do you say it will cost more?
you just said yourself we'll have to wait and see on the battery issue. So what else is costing more on the vehicle?

Yes, of course it costs more to buy, but it is assumed that is offset by what you save in gas.

I'm not sure why that one person thought he wouldn't break even for such a long time. Can you elaborate?

The hybrid Civic gets 14 miles more per gallon than the equivalent Civic EX (both manual trannies). I also drive about 25K miles a year. That's about 694 gallons in the EX and 500 gallons in the Hybrid. At $1.60 a gallon (supposed to be way beyond that price soon), that's $310 a year in savings. The car costs $2100 more to buy. So its less than 7 years to break even.

Oh, and let's not forget the tax deduction you get to take on it the first year. I believe its $2K, is it not? Basically, you get to deduct the added cost of the hybrid system over the standard.

[GreenMachine]

Originally posted by krygny
GreenMachine, This is all purely hypothetical. I've heard nothing substantive about a hybrid Pilot.

What are you talking about? I was talking about the hybrid Highlander. No where did I say anything about a hybrid PILOT. My reply was to show that not all hybrids have better performance at the expense of gas mileage.

As N_Jay said, the battery warranty is 8yrs/80K miles. Also, I read somewhere that the batteries are more like $2K, not $800.

This articles says $3K for the Civic USnews

This one says about $1,200 for the Insight Insight Central

In 8 years they might cost $800, who knows