Break in !!!!, still necessary ???

[Dac]

Hello everyone,i have been a car fanatic for some time now,i remember reading about cars that come from the factory with Mobil 1 synthetic in the engines,well we all know that synthetic lubricants are super slippery and if they fill some cars at the factory with this super lubricant that means that they will still break in but much slower or what ?,are we beeing left out on something here ?...sure a Honda is much more reliable than let's say an Aston Martin (...well a Ford really) or a Corvette (both factory fill Mobil 1 synthetic ! ) so i'm asking this all over again ;can i switch now to synthetic (got 1.600 Kilometres on my Pilot) oil before all the internall "scarring" of the engine internals takes place ?,the dervice advisor over at Honda told me to wait for 6000 Km... and only then to change the oil ,as if it's his car !,i intend to keep this vehicle for many years,opinions please and thank you all.

[jay]

Opinions are all over the place on your question. Honda says to wait on the first change, as there's a special oil in there when new. A few members have had the oil analyzed, and that showed that the oil has high levels of "molybo-something or other."

I dare say that the opinions fall along generational lines. Some more mature members have been changing the oil every 3000 miles, "and by-gosh, that's how I'm gonna keep doing it."

Others of us just sheepishly follow the manufacturer's recommendations. Imagine that.

But the bottom line is that if you do a search on break-in oil and sift through the various threads, opinions are as varied as the h-p.org membership.

[Pilot-lite]

This is MHO (My Humble Opinion)

I always buy new and tend to keep my vehicles for a very long time.

1992 Acura Legend - 12 + Years,
1989 Jeep Cherokee (Just Retired) - 15+ Years
1998 Ford (POS ) Windstar - 6+ Years (Traded in for the Pilot)

I change my oil around every 3000-4000 miles with the exception of the first oil change which I change at 6000-7000 miles. the result. I have engines that do not burn oil excessively (I never have to add oil between changes, even if I have to wait a little longer between changes)

I made the error of changing the oil on my Acura too soon the first time. That caused a valve stem to not seal properly. This causes a small puff of blue smoke when I first start the car when it is cold. This is not a big deal and only happens when I park up hill. Parking up hill allows the oil settle at the back of the heads allowing the oil to soak into the rear valve stems. Not a big deal and it does not burn any appreciable oil, it is just annoying.


The reason I wait longer on the first oil change is that despite the higher quality and tighter tolerances of the newer engines they still need to be broken in. Changing the oil too soon disrupts that process (that happened with my Acura). Another contributing factor is how the car is driven the first few thousand miles. Driving at different speeds during the break in period is best. Driving at a constant speed, especially highway speeds can cause the moving parts to seat improperly causing oil to slip by (again, that is what happened with the Acura, too much freeway driving during the first 6000).

Obviously this is all anecdotal but it seems to have worked for me.

As for switching to synthetic oil, I would wait as long as possible to switch just to be sure everything seats properly.

Enjoy the ride.

[RipRocK]

Dac, I read alot on using synthetic oil and the general consensus was that you should wait until about the third or fourth oil change before switching to synthetics.

Many in here who've had years of experience and loads of knowledge have told me so and many in a couple of honda/acura dedicated newsgroups also told me that.

I read that only the blue printed engines come shipped with synthetic oil, such as Porsche's, Ferrari's and such. You're sure Corvette's come from the factory with synthetic?

Anyway, you just wanna give all the engine components to properly seat and seal themselves before switching to synthetic oil. Do a search for "synthetic AND oil" in here. You would've read many good replies and discussions by now.

[Aggie Pilot]

Corvette's come from the factory with Mobil 1 in the crankcase last time I checked.

As far as when to switch to synthetic, you can do so at the first manufacturer recommended oil change. With new technology to manufacture engines and the extensive use of aluminum parts, break in is now 5000 to 7500 miles.

[Pilot-lite]

Originally posted by Aggie Pilot
As far as when to switch to synthetic, you can do so at the first manufacturer recommended oil change. With new technology to manufacture engines and the extensive use of aluminum parts, break in is now 5000 to 7500 miles.

Agreed. That's really what I meant when I said wait. Synthetics are so much better dealing with cold starts. The sooner you start using synthetic oil after the break in the better it is for the engine. Just don't be to eager to do that first oil change.

[Dac]

Hello everyone and thank you for the replies regarding engine oil...,just yesterday i bought 5 L of Mobil 1 5W30 for my BMW (it's been on this stuff since new,185.000 Km still runs like new,mind you i add a can of Lubro Moly MoS2 to every oil change along with a Mahle oil filter and magnetic oil pan plug),what i discovered is that it actually printed on the back label that Mobil 1 is a factory fill for ...Corvette !,does this mean that Aston,Vette,Porsche,Ferrari,etc engines are made to much higher tolerances that a japanese (especialy a VTEC engine .I kinda knew that american manufacturers weren't too concern with this stuff at all but even the main stream japanese or european have much higher standards (explains why they last 2,3 times longer ).Our Pilot get's driven mostly in town but this upcoming weekend will go to Banff (Alberta-Canada ) and by the time will come back it should be almost ready for the first oil change,right now i got i think 1800 Kms.

Thank you all .

P.S. One other thing,our Pilot is kinda pigish on fuel guys,will this improve some time down the road ?,i did manage to get 530 Km on a tank full driving in town like an old man ,i'm i expecting too much from our new Pilot...i keep thinking that the BMW gets so much better fuel economy,i'm sorry i think i'm comparing apples and oranges .

[john802]

Originally posted by Dac
... P.S. One other thing,our Pilot is kinda pigish on fuel guys,will this improve some time down the road ?,i did manage to get 530 Km on a tank full driving in town like an old man ,i'm i expecting too much from our new Pilot...i keep thinking that the BMW gets so much better fuel economy,i'm sorry i think i'm comparing apples and oranges .

It takes ~5,000 miles to really improved your miles per fuel consumtion. Have you done the idle procedure on your pilot? Maybe that's one of the causes of your poor mileage/gallon.

[Dac]

Hello everyone,i'm afraid i don't know what you mean by idle procedure... ,can you please tell me or direct me in the right direction,i know the Pilot it's not "axactly" a Lambo Countach aerodinamic wise but still...
Thank you very much

[jay]

Originally posted by Dac
Hello everyone,i'm afraid i don't know what you mean by idle procedure... ,can you please tell me or direct me in the right direction,i know the Pilot it's not "axactly" a Lambo Countach aerodinamic wise but still...
Thank you very much

The idle learn procedure is part of the pre-delivery inspection. It's a procedure which programs the engine idle, and must be done whenever the battery is disconnected. Some members haqve reported some success in improving gas mileage by re-doing the idle learn procedure.

[Bugshu]

All cars still have breakin. You have a brand new engine made of metal and when the parts start to move against each other for the first time ever you will have engine wear. You should have more engine wear and metal shavings come off of your engine the first 5000 miles than you will in the next 95000 miles.

The only way to avoid break in is to switch to plastic engines and we are years away from that happening. Engines have moving parts and are made of metal and as such you are going to get metal shavings in your oil as engines adapt to being used.

Molydenum is a soft metal and it wraps itself around metal and puts sheets of protective plating around it. The metal shavings bouncing around your engine during break in will do less damage if you have anti-wear additives in your oil such as Molydenum in it.

Most oil filters protect and catch larger particles of metal that comes loose during break in. I dont have exact statistics but Im guessing that metal shavings up to .20 microns will be caught by your oil filter. The initial shavings that come loose that are under .20 microns will be bouncing around your engine and can still do some damage. Most engine wear actually comes from particles under .20 microns.

The absolute best way to get the wear metals out of your oil and engine is to drain the oil and change it. The next best protection is to have an oil in your car with anti-wear additives such as Molydenum and/or Zinc.

Think of your engine as a football field with Astroturf. Astroturf over concrete is still plenty hard but its softer than concrete. The soft metals added as anti-wear additives in your oil such as Molydenum and Zinc provide an astroturf like protection to the metal parts of your engine as the small microscopic shavings of wear metals thrown off by a new engine come bouncing around your engine as the oil flows through it.

I dont believe that oil sets an engine or can influence metal on a molecular level. The advantage over synthetics over traditional oils is that the oil doesnt break down or shear as easily. It maintains its integrity. One should be able to switch back and forth from synthetics to traditional without any problems. Some people like the ability of synthetic oil to maintain its integrity and ability to protect your car and engine and some like to drain their oil every 3000 miles to get the pollutants and wear metals out of the oil and the car.

The best advice for break in is to drive your car gently. Until the parts get to know each other and are use to moving against each other smoothly and without metal on metal friction its best to limit the damage by gentle driving.

The next best advice that I have is to drain the oil and get those high initial wear metals out of your system.

My third piece of advice is to use oil with anti-wear additives like Molydenum until you finish the break in period and your engine has established itself.

The variable technology engine called V-Tech is a marvel. Its designed to operate the engine at the efficiency needed for different situations. The engine might run at lower capacity and use less fuel at idle than traditional engines while still being able to run at high capacity during acceleration when needed. The engine varies itself to the needs of the car during performance valleys and peaks. Its an amazing engine and the pride of Honda. Other companies like Saturn are buying the thing to put in their own vehicles like the Vue.

Honda engines are wonderful feats of engineering. You can probably treat them badly and abuse them and still expect 150-200K miles from them. If you treat them right then you will get much more performance from them.

After an engine is broken in and the metals become used to moving against each other and smooth down a bit then performance and gas mileage should improve slightly and you will find that you have a wonderful engine and car.

Happy Piloting All,



Bugshu

[Dac]

You are right 100% but why is it that some companies come factory filled with Mobil 1 synthetic oil in their engines ???,is that engine oil molibdenum or zinc enriched ?,and to be honest i only know of one oil company that offers MoS2 as part of their oil but they don't make 5W20 ...Lubro Moly out of Germany.
Thank you

[Bugshu]

Mobil 1 0W-20 is said to have high levels of Moly and Zinc. Here is a link to the virgin oil analysis of what is in the oil.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...=000097#000000

Honda 5W-20 oil has lots of Moly in it. Compare it versus the Mobil 1.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...=000031#000006

Here is a virgin analysis of Valvoline 5W-20 and you might notice that it doesnt have any Moly in it at all.

http://theoildrop.server101.com/ubb/...=000101#000003

I havent seen a good virgin oil analysis VOA of Pennzoil 5W-20 but Ive seen enough used oil analysis results of their dino oil to believe that it has a good add pack with lots of moly in it.

I believe that M1 is the standard factory fill for Corvettes and perhaps a few other high performance cars. Corvette owners can be demanding on their cars and its hard to imagine a new corvette owner driving like a little old lady so Chevrolet just bites the bullet and spends extra for a better oil.

As you can tell there are big differences between the anti-wear additives of the Honda factory fill oil and Valvoline. Honda doesnt trust all oils so they just recommend that everybody leave the factory fill oil in for 7500 miles.

If you are wise enough to change the oil with a good oil during the initial break in period then you should be fine.

Happy Piloting All,



Bugshu

[xGS]

Originally posted by Bugshu
[snip]
I havent seen a good virgin oil analysis VOA of Pennzoil 5W-20 but Ive seen enough used oil analysis results of their dino oil to believe that it has a good add pack with lots of moly in it.
[snip]

Pennzoil 5W-20 VOA : [http://theoildrop.server101.com/cgi/...;f=11;t=000056]

[oldcar]

Your new Honda breaks in in the first hour of operation. Driving carefully for the first 1k miles is good insurance in case you have an engine that has tolerances that have stacked up to produce a poor fit somewhere. This practice will help problems surface gently, instead of with a bang.

You should go at least 2 or 3k miles before changing oil and filter. Honda's factory fill is loaded with some extra moly. And about the zink someone mentioned. Zink only comes in to play where there is metal to metal contact. If no contact, zink does nothing. As for adding additives, don't do it, ever, any kind of additive, just say no. If you have some extra money, try a better oil, something like Mobil 1, Red Line, Amsoil or Neo. Use their oil package just like they supply it. Then try a better filter, again like Mobil 1 or Amsoil. If you can find a Mobil 1 filter for your application, Amsoil probably has a match.

Lean how to change your own oil and stick to a schedule.