synth. oil vs. regular oil - take 2! MC related!

[colorider]

Originally posted by edwelly
sorry if I amd soem people mad with this thread - I didn't wnat this trhead to become a "my oil is better than you oil" thread/war. I jsut wanted to know a few things like:
How many people are using synth. oil vs. regular oil?
What weight and brand do you use?
How often do you change your oil?

---edwelly

The problem is that MOST people cannot simply answer the question without feeling compelled to add WHY they answered it the way they did!!

Then, when the next guy disagrees with the reason, and you know where this is going!!

I use dino in my cage - change every 5K
I use syn in my putt - change (usually) twice a year - which is about every 8K miles.

Don't ask me why and I won't tell you why.

(well, maybe)

[AlH]

You let your motorcycle go 8K on the same oil?!? Holy Crap! I'll have to remember to NEVER buy a used bike from you
I use synthetic in my bikes and change the dirt bike every 500 miles or less and the street bike every 1-2k. Bikes are a whole lot harder on oil than cars. My truck gets dino change every 4k and Pilot every 5k.

[colorider]

Originally posted by AlH
You let your motorcycle go 8K on the same oil?!? Holy Crap! I'll have to remember to NEVER buy a used bike from you
I use synthetic in my bikes and change the dirt bike every 500 miles or less and the street bike every 1-2k. Bikes are a whole lot harder on oil than cars. My truck gets dino change every 4k and Pilot every 5k.

See - I said this would happen!!!!

IMHO, some bikes are harder on oil than cars. Other than the wet clutch, I do not feel my ST is any harder on oil than my cages. Because of the wet clutch, I need to avoid the oils with the friction reducing additives - hence why I use synthetic. I could use Rotella dino and get by as well, but would change the oil every 3-5K. Since many of my trips can typically be well in excess of the 3-5K, another reason for using synthetic.

[AlH]

Does the transmission run in the same oil? Not familiar with that bike but that is one of the most severe uses for oil...it shears the oil much quicker than the motor.

[charlie]

Syn vs Dino discussions are a blood sport on Forums.I use Mobil one in my bikes and in the "cars"Pilot,Tundra.
The motor in the Honda ST is a heck of a lot like a Honda Accord 4 cyl-water cooled,dual overhead cam,4 valve head.It does use the oil in the gear box,and it has a wet clutch,but a good Syn is more resistant to oxidation,and heat breakdown than a Dino oil,so 8k and 6 months isn't a big deal.The ST motor is also not being "stressed" as much as the car motors.It take maybe 15 hp to keep an average sized motorcycle at a steady 70mph-that bike makes maybe 100 RWHP.It might take40- 50 hp for an Accord with 125 RWHP(160 advertised).The bike is loafing at 15% of peak power,the car is putting out maybe 35%-it is working harder.
Oh well,Charlie.

[N_Jay]

Originally posted by charlie
Syn vs Dino discussions are a blood sport on Forums.I use Mobil one in my bikes and in the "cars"Pilot,Tundra.
The motor in the Honda ST is a heck of a lot like a Honda Accord 4 cyl-water cooled,dual overhead cam,4 valve head.It does use the oil in the gear box,and it has a wet clutch,but a good Syn is more resistant to oxidation,and heat breakdown than a Dino oil,so 8k and 6 months isn't a big deal.The ST motor is also not being "stressed" as much as the car motors.It take maybe 15 hp to keep an average sized motorcycle at a steady 70mph-that bike makes maybe 100 RWHP.It might take40- 50 hp for an Accord with 125 RWHP(160 advertised).The bike is loafing at 15% of peak power,the car is putting out maybe 35%-it is working harder.
Oh well,Charlie.

Would a better measure of engine stress be a comparison of Average Cruse HP per Liter?

Your bike is making about 13.6, while the accord is making 15 (using your numbers). Not realy that much difference.

Or if you realy want to get fancy, maybe its "Cylinder Cycles" (in millions) divided by the oil capacity?

[colorider]

Originally posted by charlie
Syn vs Dino discussions are a blood sport on Forums.I use Mobil one in my bikes and in the "cars"Pilot,Tundra.
The motor in the Honda ST is a heck of a lot like a Honda Accord 4 cyl-water cooled,dual overhead cam,4 valve head.It does use the oil in the gear box,and it has a wet clutch,but a good Syn is more resistant to oxidation,and heat breakdown than a Dino oil,so 8k and 6 months isn't a big deal.The ST motor is also not being "stressed" as much as the car motors.It take maybe 15 hp to keep an average sized motorcycle at a steady 70mph-that bike makes maybe 100 RWHP.It might take40- 50 hp for an Accord with 125 RWHP(160 advertised).The bike is loafing at 15% of peak power,the car is putting out maybe 35%-it is working harder.
Oh well,Charlie.

Thank you Charlie!!! It always make me feel good when I talk to someone who has actually HEARD of a ST!!!! There are many MC riders out there that still think it is a BMW when they see one.

And I agree - the ST is loafing at 70mph. There are not too many 1100cc - 4 carb engines out there that can get better than 50MPG at interstate speeds.

BTW, 100HP is about right, but not at the rear wheel.

[charlie]

Maybe hp per cc would be as good as % of peak power-could argue both ways.Since we are talking about wear,I chose power used/peak power because the motor was designed to "take" a 100 hp beating,the car motor was designed to take a 125 hp beating.If it is only being asked for 15% of peak,it is not being stressed much-the car at 35% of peak is being asked for a bit more.Who knows.
How did you get 15hp/liter for the Accord?At 40 hp I get 16.6(22% more than the bike) and at 50 I get 20hp/l(47% more)?I think the Accord is 2.4 liters?
Well,what the heck-6 months and 8000 miles isn't really asking much from a good syn in a modern MC motor on a touring bike(hy miles etc).Luck,Charlie PS Colorider,amazing the power that bikes make now-the 600's make 105+rwhp.In 1980 the Suzuki 1100 made 83 hp and it was BAD-the CBX made maybe 78 hp with 6 cyl.

[AlH]

All good points...but I prefer to look at it another way....if the Pilot engine made the same horsepower as my bikes then it would be cranking out 400+ horsepower and turning 10,000 rpm! I ride my bikes much differently than the typical ST1100 rider too. The dirt bike is wide open much of the time. The street bike is almost never "cruised" in my case. I only ride it occasionally on some very twisty mountain roads and to be honest I'm hauling a**. These are roads so twisty you can see your own taillight.
But I still wouldn't leave oil in any bike over a couple of thousand miles.
If I drove the Pilot like I do the bikes I'd be changing it that often too. Ok..I admit I'm anal about oil...cheap insurance to do frequent changes I say. Besides when Wal_mart closed out the $8 a qt Mobil 1 motorcycle oil for $2 I went around and bought ALL of it at several stores

[charlie]

Alh,2/qt?Wal just raised the Mobil 1 "car" oil(in the 5 qt jug) from $17.85 to $22.85 here in New Orleans-broke my heart.I use the car stuff in my bikes(3 SR500'S and a SV650).Did you see the 3 part "oil review" Motorcycle Consumer News did a couple of years ago-about the time the oil specs were changed to decrease amounts of a Zinc antiwear additive(to keep the CC's working longer)?Mobil 1-car and bike did very well,and -on the limited testing they did-appeared identical.The additive packages appeared identical across all vis.
I wonder why(I have heard it is)-and if-gearboxes,actually are "hard" on oil.The pressures certainly would be very high-tiny contact areas,huge forces-but why would that be hard on oil-hard on the gears,maybe produces a lot of tiny steel particles
-no doubt-but the oils?Why,it certainly doesn't really "chop" the molecules up,they are too small relative to the surface irregularities ??Maybe I will look it up and report.
ALH,what bikes do you abuse??Charlie

[colorider]

Originally posted by charlie
Alh,2/qt?Wal just raised the Mobil 1 "car" oil(in the 5 qt jug) from $17.85 to $22.85 here in New Orleans-broke my heart.I use the car stuff in my bikes(3 SR500'S and a SV650).Did you see the 3 part "oil review" Motorcycle Consumer News did a couple of years ago-about the time the oil specs were changed to decrease amounts of a Zinc antiwear additive(to keep the CC's working longer)?Mobil 1-car and bike did very well,and -on the limited testing they did-appeared identical.The additive packages appeared identical across all vis.
I wonder why(I have heard it is)-and if-gearboxes,actually are "hard" on oil.The pressures certainly would be very high-tiny contact areas,huge forces-but why would that be hard on oil-hard on the gears,maybe produces a lot of tiny steel particles
-no doubt-but the oils?Why,it certainly doesn't really "chop" the molecules up,they are too small relative to the surface irregularities ??Maybe I will look it up and report.
ALH,what bikes do you abuse??Charlie

I thought the new "Energy Conserving" Mobil 1 (cage oil) was a no-no for MC wet clutches - just as the dino stuff? I can't remember what the identifying mark is on the container - but this was discussed at length on my MC forum sometime back.

Dontcha just love these oil threads?!?!?!?!

[charlie]

Colorider,the 15w50 Mobil 1 "CAGE OIL"
I use in the bikes might not be energy conserving because of the vis.I will have to look at the label,just did,it isn't.The thinner Mobil 1 certainly is energy conserving.I have heard the same about the wet clutches.The Suzuki specs 10w40,but it gives a wide range of substitutes,if it isn't available.Do any of the modern bikes call for a 5w oil?
I sorta oversimplified the MCN oil review-I seem to remember that BMW's oil did have higher amounts of the zinc additive than current spec car oil.Many of them have CC's,but.....I guess the decreased zinc level is just to increase the probability that the CC will function well enough to keep emissions in spec for 100,000 miles,or whatever. Charlie

[AlH]

When I bought all the M1 MC oil it was because it was cheap (on closeout) and was 10w-40 which is what my XR400 Honda and SV650 Suzuki call for. Even my 2 stroke KDX200 Kawasaki specs that weight for the transmission. Prior to that I'd been running the 15w-50 M1 car oil, which is not energy conserving and doesn't have the friction modifiers. The transmission shearing is of the long chain molecules used in the viscosity index improvers. Supposedly a straight weight oil wouldn't shear as much since it doesn't have VI's in it.
Al

[charlie]

I read somewhere(great reference,huh) that some(very precise) SYN oils don't need any VIS. Mod. to stay in their viscosity range.If so,and if Mobil 1 is one of them,then it makes it an even better MC oil.I use it in the cars and bikes for piece of mind,and because sometimes I get a little lazy with the change interval.It was hard to get excited about a 4cyl Accord,so I wouldn't pay as much attention to it.I probably let it go for 9500 miles over 8 months.
SV650-how do you like it-lot of bang for the buck!?.I got my SV 650 ,2001 maybe 3 years ago,but sort of lost interest in it till the last 3 months.The riding position is considered very humane,but since I have such a gimpy neck,back,and knees,it didn't agree with me.Well,I finally had someone make "frontsets" to drop the pegs and move them forward.I had GEN Mar risers,but they weren't enough,so I rerouted the cables,and installed SR500 bars.I now sit almost bolt upright-a late 70's riding position.The rear shock is a real filling loosener,so I went the cheap route and put a GSXR 750 shock on it-works great.
I dumped it recently,and rather than blame it on pilot error(couldn't be!),I decided the fork dived too much on braking(so bad I had to hold onto the bars to keep from being unseated like a bronc rider).Progressive springs were cheaper than Race Tech,so I went with them-work great.
My dumping("I laid it down" ha,ha) was caused by my overbraking at slow speed(maybe 15mph) when someone stopped suddenly in front of me-I must have been on autopilot..I grabbed too big a handful of front brake,and the front wheel locked up,and turned under.Glad I installed case protectors,they protected all the bike parts(the front MC did have some grinding on it) and my rt leg.My leg was trapped underneath,but loosely enough that I could pull it out-with great effort.Huge bruise on the right hip, tiny amount of rash on rt elbow,torn up helmet visor mounting,but nothing else.I don't remember the helmet hitting,but obviously it did-lot to be said for full face helmets!
Well, I ran on-dogs harrassing me, they want a walk,Charlie

[AlH]

We are well into thread drift now so here goes
Do you have stock weight oil in the forks? I run 20 weight BelRay in mine and Race-Tech springs I lucked out and found on ebay in my required weight. I'm aaaah a little heavier than the bike is sprung for 6'1" 240lbs
Need to round up a GSXR750 shock too. I love that little bike, I regularly embarass the hell out of bikes that cost 3x up in the twisties. Oh yeah I added a Corbin seat pronto when I bought mine in 2000...my butt is very thankful
I like the standard riding position...I'm too old to lean down on a sportbike for more than a few minutes.