Second Row Seat Rail Modification

[Bentot]

Has anyone looked into modifying the rails on the second row seat? Specifically, allowing the seats to lock at a more forward position, giving the third row leg room.

[Jet-Pilot-64]

I'd be interested in hearing about how to do that!

[Jiaronnis]

Same here, do tell.

[kemosabe]

Haven't done it yet, but perhaps if I post some starter info, someone with MacGyver-like skills can take this stuff and run with it...

[kemosabe]

Another page from the mighty book...

[gopilot]

I would love to know how to do this!

[dcchew]

I hate to spoil everyone's fun here, but doing a modification like this will definitely void the warranty on your Pilot.

In addition, if you're in an accident and someone is injured in your Pilot with this seat modification, be prepared to watch your insurance company abandon you in a flash if anyone tries to sue you. You'll be in debt to everyone until you die.

If you need more 3rd row seat leg space, go buy a bigger SUV. It will be cheaper than the possiblity of having to deal with civil suits and the legal beagles.

[GlenH]

Originally posted by dcchew
I hate to spoil everyone's fun here, but doing a modification like this will definitely void the warranty on your Pilot.

In addition, if you're in an accident and someone is injured in your Pilot with this seat modification, be prepared to watch your insurance company abandon you in a flash if anyone tries to sue you. You'll be in debt to everyone until you die.

This modification will only void the warranty with respect to things affected by the mod. For instance, if your engine or transmission fails, this 2nd row seat modification cannot void your warranty for the engine or the transmission.

Also, what you said about your insurance company abandoning you is simply wrong. Your insurance company will still defend you in a lawsuit and fully protect you up to your policy limits regardless of what types of modifications you do to your vehicle. Think about it. There are MANY MANY people who perform all sorts of modifications to their vehicles. Everything from swaping rims and tires to suspension systems to installing all kinds of interior, exterior, engine mods. NO ONE has ever had their policy voided or their claim denied simply because a modification they installed on their car made it less safe.

Glen

[renov8r]

I know that MOST automotive insurance
policies SPECIFICALLY refer to "modifications" and they WILL NOT extend coverage to YOU if YOU have (to use your words) "made it less safe".

I think a big ol' DUH is needed here -- think about it, what you are suggesting is that you can just go changing the MOUNTING of the REAR SEAT and the insurance company would say "no problem -- hey why don't you get rid of the seat belts too, and maybe get rid of the padding and everything and put some easy to clean aluminum patio furniture in there - NO PROBLEM, YOU'RE COVERED, you are "in good hands".

WELL OF COURSE THAT IS NOT HOW INSURANCE WORKS!!!

The RISK of getting INJURED will be effected modifying certain things on your vehicle -- that increased risk would mean that your insurance premium DOES NOT reflect the POTENTIAL COST to the insurer.

Heck even if you go to a dealer and buy a conversion van with beds and everything it will specifically say things like "this surface not intended for transporting passengers" just so that the insurance companies have "an out".

Sure, there are things that a DEALER will sorta fib about "voiding your warranty" and you can check out the specifics in the Magnusson-Moss Act. True, you have the concept correct as far as modifications go for run of the mill things -- they can't say HIDs voided your transmission warranty unless you somehow blew the tranny ECU with the HID module or something.

The idea that "no one has ever had their insurance claim denied" is just WRONG -- don't take my word, just search google -- there are THOUSANDS of posts that will say different!

Did you ever hear of the 1970s? Did you ever read any article that described what made the car companies back down from the muscle car era hp wars? HINT: insurance premiums had to be SKY HIGH to cover the claims & kids who most wanted hipo cars could not afford to insure 'em...

Originally posted by GlenH


.... your insurance company abandoning you is simply wrong. Your insurance company will still defend you in a lawsuit and fully protect you up to your policy limits regardless of what types of modifications you do to your vehicle. Think about it. There are MANY MANY people who perform all sorts of modifications to their vehicles. Everything from swaping rims and tires to suspension systems to installing all kinds of interior, exterior, engine mods. NO ONE has ever had their policy voided or their claim denied simply because a modification they installed on their car made it less safe.

Glen

[krygny]

Originally posted by dcchew
In addition, if you're in an accident and someone is injured in your Pilot with this seat modification, be prepared to watch your insurance company abandon you in a flash if anyone tries to sue you. You'll be in debt to everyone until you die.

What you said.

Seat rails and structural hardware are part of the overall restraint system. They are intended to withstand extremely high stresses up to all but the most violent collisions, both front and rear end.

I would strongly recommend against doing anything of this nature. If, on the other hand, Honda were to make an adjustable seat rail available in later year models, it might be possible to purchase them and do a direct replacement. That's what I would hope for if it's really important to you.

[clarity]

what if a professional conversion shop did the mod? Besides, how on earth would they be able to tell? I've never had an insurance adjustor look that closely at a car apart from general damage estimate anyhow.

Which is interesting. I had a first year new beetle, recently totalled. The driver's side side door airbag did not deploy. All other bags deployed. The door was opened several times to repair a recalled plastic piece in the window mechanism. Perhaps it damaged the airbag? Insurance did not ask or notice anything about the "modifications", even though it obviously affected the safety mechanism.

If I installed Ricarro (sp?) seats in a car, would my insurance dump me then too?

And hi BTW. Picked up my sagebrush EX today.

[GlenH]

You're entitled to your opinion, but you are still 100% wrong. Please cite the specific policy language in your insurance policy or ANY auto insurance policy that states they will disclaim or deny liability coverage just because you have performed modifications to your vehicle. You will not find it because IT DOESN'T EXIST. Why do I know this? Because I work in the insurance industry. I study policy language all day.

MANY MANY MANY people perform "unsafe modifications" to their vehicles ALL THE TIME. It could be argued that lowering your car or adding those 20" rims and tires or adding body kits to a car or taking out the airbag equipped steering wheel and adding a non-airbag Momo steering wheel or upgrading your stereo system and messing around w/ the electrical system all makes a vehicle less safe. Guess what? These are all VERY common modifications which has never, in my experience resulted in an insurance company refusing to protect their policyholder due to a resulting accident.

Heck, I'll give you an example that I've recently seen - person with an SUV had one of those huge front face bars installed. They smacked a pedestrian causing serious injuries. It was argued that the pedestrian's injuries were worsened by the fact that the SUV had this huge metal face bar attached. The result of this situation was not one where the insurer denied liability, but in fact, the insurer paid even more money because the pedestrian was more seriously injured.

Some policies do indicate they will not pay to repair or replace certain modifications (such as installing a $10,000 aftermarket stereo) but they will still cover you fully for any liability, claims, lawsuits, etc. that arises from an accident caused by that modifcation.

With respect to your facetious example about installing patio furniture in your car in lieu of the stock seats, seatbelts, etc., guess what? The insurance company most likely STILL would cover you for liability resulting from injuries to your passenger.

Insurance companies take protecting their policyholders very seriously. THis is not necessarily because insurance companies are noble or always have the insured's best interests in mind. This is because insurers have had their asses sued like crazy in the past 20 years to the point where they will bend over backwards to find ways to protect and cover their insureds rather than risking a bad faith lawsuit for not protecting their own insureds. That is the reality of the current situation.

If you could provide evidence of a policy with exclusions that you claim or specific examples of an insurance company denying liability coverage simply because a car had a modification that was deemed to be dangerous, please let me know.

Finally, if you're going to quote me, don't take it out of context. I never said "no one has ever had their insurance claim denied" because, obviously, claims are denied ALL THE TIME. I said, "no one has ever had their insurance claim denied simply because a modification they installed on their car made it less safe." Find me an example of that and I will introduce that person to a good bad faith attorney who will easily extort millions of dollars from that insurance carrier for bad faith handling of their claim.


Glen

Originally posted by renov8r
I know that MOST automotive insurance
policies SPECIFICALLY refer to "modifications" and they WILL NOT extend coverage to YOU if YOU have (to use your words) "made it less safe".

I think a big ol' DUH is needed here -- think about it, what you are suggesting is that you can just go changing the MOUNTING of the REAR SEAT and the insurance company would say "no problem -- hey why don't you get rid of the seat belts too, and maybe get rid of the padding and everything and put some easy to clean aluminum patio furniture in there - NO PROBLEM, YOU'RE COVERED, you are "in good hands".

WELL OF COURSE THAT IS NOT HOW INSURANCE WORKS!!!

The RISK of getting INJURED will be effected modifying certain things on your vehicle -- that increased risk would mean that your insurance premium DOES NOT reflect the POTENTIAL COST to the insurer.

Heck even if you go to a dealer and buy a conversion van with beds and everything it will specifically say things like "this surface not intended for transporting passengers" just so that the insurance companies have "an out".

Sure, there are things that a DEALER will sorta fib about "voiding your warranty" and you can check out the specifics in the Magnusson-Moss Act. True, you have the concept correct as far as modifications go for run of the mill things -- they can't say HIDs voided your transmission warranty unless you somehow blew the tranny ECU with the HID module or something.

The idea that "no one has ever had their insurance claim denied" is just WRONG -- don't take my word, just search google -- there are THOUSANDS of posts that will say different!

Did you ever hear of the 1970s? Did you ever read any article that described what made the car companies back down from the muscle car era hp wars? HINT: insurance premiums had to be SKY HIGH to cover the claims & kids who most wanted hipo cars could not afford to insure 'em...

[krygny]

Originally posted by clarity
what if a professional conversion shop did the mod? Besides, how on earth would they be able to tell? ...

Generally, it might only be investigated closely in a crash involving a fatality. If a structure in the seat failed in a collision, the insurance company would definitely want to know why, (as would NHTSA) because it's not supposed to happen. In a crash involving a fatality or a serious injury it would get even more scrutiny, if not to determine a possible design/safety flaw, then for the insurance company to absolve themselves by placing the blame on the manufacturer, the owner, or the "professional conversion shop" (whatever that is) that did the modification.

This is pretty morbid. Just don't mess with the seat.

[clarity]

you know, the places that make conversion vans (that's how they get made, right?) Not my back yard. I figured they'd be the kind of place that could do something like that since they put custom seats in vans. Isn't that what they do? Or do those vans spring fully formed from some manufacturer facility somewhere?

I was discussing it with someone and they thought it would be posssible, as long as you only wanted one or two positions, not a variable adjust, to do it without altering the basic rail and attachment design. Maybe I'll ask him to get down there and look and think harder about how it could potentially be done.

Do any similarly sized vehicles have second row adjust? Maybe those rails could be used. Dunno. I've never thought about any project of this nature before.

[mcardle]

I'm hoping that Honda hears "through the grapevine" that this would be a welcome improvement to make on future models. At that point, I should think the dealership would be able to pull the seats out, replace the rails and retrofit my car.

I would never cut my own notches in the rails or whatever would be required to achieve the desired result. As mentioned above, God forbid you get into a bad accident and as a result of the DIY "improvement", the seat slides unimpeded to the front of the rail, or even flies out of the track. Whoever happened to be in that seat would be in a world of hurt.