New formula Mobile 1 ATF works great

[StudentPilot]

It's that time again for the fluid change, but this time I went with a mixture of two most advanced fluids, Mobile-1 ATF new formula that is Z-1 compatible, and Castrol's Dexron 6. If you don't care to read on, the result is silky smooth shifts that you hardly feel them.

Before you think I'm crazy for deviating from the Holy Honda Z-1, or flaming this post, I'm not. The company I worked for is the additive pack manufacturer, OEM factory-fill and service-fill for Honda, GM, Chrysler, Ford-Volvo. So for those of you who swear that Honda made their own super secret ATF, that is factually incorrect. Even the oil business is modular. You buy base oil from one company, jointly develop the transmission with an oil additive specialist, and source your additives from one of the four companies in this sector, and marketing.

The company's NYSE Ticker is NEU. It just announced a great quarter so the stock went from 30 last month to 60. It also supplies additive packs for Mobile, Shell, Pennzoil, STP, Castrol, and yes, AMSOIL too. Since a lot of people swears by Amsoil, let's demystify it here. It is able to claim that it exceeds the parameters of all other oil because Amsoil product is loaded with more additives than base oil compared to the competition per bottle. It does not produce the oil itself, it is simply a good blender & marketing operation.

Since the company is the co-developer of Dex 6 for GM and Honda's fluid; and one of the additive suppliers for Mobile-1. The R&D gearhead said I can do this at my own risk (mixing M1 and Dex6) and will be happy with the results. And yes he was right. Dex6 is an advanced synfluid for GM's 6spautobox and it has good anti-shrudder characteristics. Technically, it is more advanced than Z1. As for Mob 1 new formula, yes it is a multi-vehicle fluid but if it says Z-1 compatible the company stands behind it. From a marketing perspective, the auto manufacturer has exclusive trademark for the fluid like Z1 and Dex 6, so anything aftermarket can only say it is compatible. It's like comparing name brand vs. generic drugs.

I did the trans flush from the ATF return hose located behind the driver side bumper at the bottom corner of the radiator. The old fluid drains into a milk jug while I filled fresh fluids from the top fill-hole of the 05 Pilot (not from the dipstick hole) in between turning on/off the ignition and rowing through the gears. This is the same procedure used for some European cars in place of machine-flush. With this procedure, you don't need to drain and fill the ATF pan and go for a drive in between. If you have someone to help you, this can go really quickly because the fill hole gulps down fresh fluid pretty fast, so you can let the running engine drain out the old fluid while new stock is going in from the top.

The ATF flush from the return hose took 10 quarts (6 of which are M-1), I probably could have done so with 7qts but I ran 3 extra qts just to be safe. Anyway, the bottom line is that the result of the Z-1 compatible fluid was very satisfying.

There is nothing wrong with Z-1 (great price compared to the new M1 which is over $8 a quart), but I wanted the extra protection from synATF that has the best additives. Call me crazy but the gear box shifts more smoothly than when the car was new.

[N_Jay]

There is more to the fluid besides smooth shift.

Maybe they are too smooth and there is less friction and more slip then desired in some of the clutches allowing them to wear faster then expected.

Let us know how it is working in about 100,000 miles.

[bigdadi]

I trust more on the Mobil than Mobile ... and Honda's fluid keeps my warranty ...

[youbetcha]

Doesn't blending two manufacturers' ATFs together basically absolve each of them from any responsibility if something goes wrong?

[belundy]

Yeah, blending your own seems a bit risky, not to mention that if you drop 3 quarts every 30k miles or so and refill with Z-1, the Pilot 5 speed shifts silky anyway.

I do admit using someones (Penz maybe) multi-vehicle fluid on my daughters 01 Civic about 20k ago, since she's not home often and Honda parts was closed for the weekend. Downloaded the spec and compared to Z-1. Almost identical viscosity range and index, higher flashpoint.

Original fluid had 110k on it (bought the car used) and was very dark. Tranny seems to be fine so far with smooth, quick shifts, imperceptible lock converter operation.

[N_Jay]

Originally posted by belundy

I do admit using someones (Penz maybe) multi-vehicle fluid on my daughters 01 Civic about 20k ago, since she's not home often and Honda parts was closed for the weekend. Downloaded the spec and compared to Z-1. Almost identical viscosity range and index, higher flashpoint.

Unless it is labeled Honda Z-1 compatible, I would change it out.

Trans fluid is not just about viscosity range. It is a complex engineered fluid designed for the specific application.

[rocky]

Originally posted by N_Jay


Unless it is labeled Honda Z-1 compatible, I would change it out.

Trans fluid is not just about viscosity range. It is a complex engineered fluid designed for the specific application.

If Honda is always right N_Jay, why did they mess up so badly with the 2003/04 transmission?

[N_Jay]

Originally posted by rocky


If Honda is always right N_Jay, why did they mess up so badly with the 2003/04 transmission?

1) Where did I say they were always right? (Even engineers make errors)

2) Why do you think the 02/03 transmission problem was such a big error?

I find it so cute how you want to argue with me about things I did not even say.

[belundy]

Yeah, well aware that viscosity is the entire picture

Empirically, transmissions can use a variety of fluids within the same CLASS (i.e heavily modified friction) without ill effect, change in shift feel or reliability. Heck, even Honda allows Dexron [gasp] as a temp replacement.

Plus, ever notice that newer fluids are often acceptable for odl or *really* old ones (T-IV for T-III or T-II, Dexron VI for III...)? Can't tell me that an 1990 Chevy was fully tested with Dexron VI before GM recommended it?

Just saying that being more dogmatic that the car's manufacturer seems odd.

[N_Jay]

Originally posted by belundy
Yeah, well aware that viscosity is the entire picture

I assume you have a missing "not" in that sentence.

Originally posted by belundy
Empirically, transmissions can use a variety of fluids within the same CLASS (i.e heavily modified friction) without ill effect, change in shift feel or reliability. Heck, even Honda allows Dexron [gasp] as a temp replacement.

Since all (most all) ATF is similar, of course any transmission can work with a range of ATF compositions that are similar, however that does not mean they are completely compatible with the long term proper operation of the transmission.

Originally posted by belundy
Plus, ever notice that newer fluids are often acceptable for odl or *really* old ones (T-IV for T-III or T-II, Dexron VI for III...)? Can't tell me that an 1990 Chevy was fully tested with Dexron VI before GM recommended it?

AND ever notice that there are ranges that are totally incompatible.
Dexron has been known to destroy Chrysler transmissions (of similar design to Honda's BTW), and Ford has changed from there original line of ever improving "F" fluids to the more common "Dexron" type line.

Originally posted by belundy
Just saying that being more dogmatic that the car's manufacturer seems odd.

And being more cavalier may not be prudent.

Honda transmissions have a history of fairly good reliability when using Z-1 and also a history of failing when using (the supposidely similar) Dexron.

I don't thing heading this history is being overly dogmatic.

[belundy]

By your own admission, Honda slushers are "fairly" reliable when using their own fluid, but you've got to suspect-- or if you got a hold of Honda failure stats-- that very few failures were caused by *incorrect* fluid. Dirty, burnt, or insufficient fluid, sure. And certainly not failures because they used a multi-vehicle fluid labeled as compatible or suitable for Z-1 applications.

Even Honda admits that Dexron III in the Pilot trans causes shift quality issues if left in there, but they don't even hint at any damage--you know that would be mentioned if there were the slightest possibility.

Mixing your own cocktail is certainly interesting, but I'll bet harmless.

Would think "overly dogmatic" is redundant, but you're guilty either way. Aren't we all, in something like 3k oil changes or believers in evolution.

[N_Jay]

Originally posted by belundy
By your own admission, Honda slushers are "fairly" reliable when using their own fluid, but you've got to suspect-- or if you got a hold of Honda failure stats-- that very few failures were caused by *incorrect* fluid. Dirty, burnt, or insufficient fluid, sure. And certainly not failures because they used a multi-vehicle fluid labeled as compatible or suitable for Z-1 applications.

I think if you hang around Honda people long enough you will hear many stories of Tranny failures after using non-Honda fluid.

Maybe you don't know how a Auto tranny works, but bad shifts, either too hard or too soft are a major culprit in parts wear and ultimately failure.

Burnt fluid comes from excessive heat, heat comes from either excessive sheering of the fluid (as in selecting the wrong gear, or hanging in a wrong gear, (What it is probably doing with hard shifts), or heat generated from slipping clutches (What is happening with soft, smooth shifts).

(About now, you are saying to yourself; "Hmmm, maybe I don't know everything I thought I knew?")

Originally posted by belundy
Even Honda admits that Dexron III in the Pilot trans causes shift quality issues if left in there, but they don't even hint at any damage--you know that would be mentioned if there were the slightest possibility.

I would recheck that. Doesn't it say to change the fluid (three times) as soon as possible after TEMPORARILY using Dexron? (From memory, as I can't find my Owners manual right this instant)

Originally posted by belundy
Mixing your own cocktail is certainly interesting, but I'll bet harmless.

Bet?? I would not take that bet.

Originally posted by belundy
Would think "overly dogmatic" is redundant, but you're guilty either way. Aren't we all, in something like 3k oil changes or believers in evolution.

Maybe you are, but I don't do 3K oil changes, don't use synthetic, and only use the recommended fluids where good information says they are required.

[A6Pilot]

Student pilot-
It's interesting to note that most auto tranny fluids use a synthetic base stock. Manual transmissions can be another thing entirely.

Here's the bottom line:
If you find some overwhelming advantage in experimenting with Honda recommendations (that are a result of countless hours of testing by fanatic Honda engineers), by all means go for it. Just could be you know something they have overlooked.

Hell, the absolute worst that could happen would be a tranny redo.

Keep us posted.

[archie]

I have friends whose Acura transmissions failed on Z1 before the first recommended transmission sevice interval. Not a racer or a ricer in the lot. My Honda went bad too. Only Z1 ever used. Z1 great? Not convinced.

[N_Jay]

Originally posted by archie
I have friends whose Acura transmissions failed on Z1 before the first recommended transmission sevice interval. Not a racer or a ricer in the lot. My Honda went bad too. Only Z1 ever used. Z1 great? Not convinced.

Not convinced of what?