5W-20 is the worst motor oil - Must Read

[william489]

Hi Folks,

I came cross this website (http://www.synlube.com/sae5w-20.htm), there are some very interesting writeup about 5W-20.

In summary, this is what they claim below. Any comments from our members here?

Thanks.

========================

SAE 5W-20 Motor Oil is GREAT – It yields better EPA numbers than SAE 5W-30 oil = better CAFE = lower Federal Fines for not meeting minimal CAFE standards. It typically to the manufacturer saves about $15.00 per vehicle in Federal CAFE Fines.

SAE 5W-20 Motor Oil increases oil consumption – More oil gets used, just great for oil companies everywhere.

SAE 5W-20 Motor Oil increases mechanical wear, reduces engine life – that way you will buy new car sooner = more sales for car manufacturer.

Everybody wins, but the vehicle owner, who has to pay more per mile driven in the long run.

So the choice again comes to either use the SAE 5W-20 oil and DO NOT OWN THE CAR – lease it or rent it.

[N_Jay]

Originally posted by william489
Hi Folks,

I came cross this website (http://www.synlube.com/sae5w-20.htm), there are some very interesting writeup about 5W-20.

In summary, this is what they claim below. Any comments from our members here?

Thanks.

========================

SAE 5W-20 Motor Oil is GREAT – It yields better EPA numbers than SAE 5W-30 oil = better CAFE = lower Federal Fines for not meeting minimal CAFE standards. It typically to the manufacturer saves about $15.00 per vehicle in Federal CAFE Fines.

SAE 5W-20 Motor Oil increases oil consumption – More oil gets used, just great for oil companies everywhere.

SAE 5W-20 Motor Oil increases mechanical wear, reduces engine life – that way you will buy new car sooner = more sales for car manufacturer.

Everybody wins, but the vehicle owner, who has to pay more per mile driven in the long run.

So the choice again comes to either use the SAE 5W-20 oil and DO NOT OWN THE CAR – lease it or rent it.

I know of no one who has reported an oil related failure or excessive oil consumption on a properly maintained Honda.

I have over 100,000 miles on my Pilot that has always had a diet of 5w20 and normally gets changed between 5000 and 7500 miles.
It uses no discernable oil between changes.

I would guess they don't have a 5w20, but do have a 5W30 to sell you?

[whizmo]

Given that they're selling snake oil, I wouldn't trust anything on their web site (especially with the ultra-cheesey music), but many reputable folks think the 5W-20 recommendation vs. 5W-30 is mostly a tradeoff of fuel economy vs. engine protection, with the mfg's having a significant incentive to tilt the tradeoff toward fuel economy, both for sales and for meeting CAFE targets. But it's probably a subtle tradeoff and I don't view it as critical.

I use 5W-30 M1 synthetic mostly because it is very readily available at a good price. Use any good quality oil of approximately the right viscosity and change it as recommended and you can't go wrong.

- Mark

[william489]

Hi N_Jay,

I read a lot posts from you and I am a fan of your "good enough" theory...

However I see the write-up a bit different from your viewpoints. Understand the company is selling a special synthetic motor oil (5W-50), but their logic is interesting to me.

Let me draw some parallels here to drug companies, there are so many hypertension and painkiller drugs, because it is a very profitable market. While for AIDS, it is so bad in Africa, there has been few drug companies in US that is pursuing active and permanent treatment...

So for 5W-20 motor oil, if it helps everyone but drivers/owners for 5 years after 3 year/36000 miles, why would Honda care from business perspective, esp if all major auto maker is following this "nice" trend?

BTW, having an engine run well for 15 years might not be practical for Pilot owners as other parts may fall apart by that time or we want something new soon...So in practice, I agree, again your "good enough" theory works again here.

But would you think tactics here used by Honda (if any) is interesting to know?

[jdeanski]

Originally posted by N_Jay



I would guess they don't have a 5w20, but do have a 5W30 to sell you?

From their price list they have a 0W40 and a 5W50. Seems they don't like the xW20 stuff. Their fact sheet looks like a "dazzle and confuse 'em with numbers" type of thing.

[N_Jay]

Originally posted by william489
. . .But would you think tactics here used by Honda (if any) is interesting to know?

Except a good part of Honda's brand value is in their engine longevity.

They would be foolish to risk it.

In addition, they are more likely to loose the next sale, if the car is replaced because the engine is burning oil early, not gain sales.

It just does not make sense.

Your "drug company" analogy does not seem to fit at all.


As for the warranty, the issue is a trade off between the cost of offering the warranty vs. the added value.

If people expect your product to last 100,000 miles, then they is little value in offering a 100,000 mile warranty.
If your customer doe snot expect it to last, the it has great value.

In reality, the costs have to do with the random chance of a failure, because while a warranty is only supposed to cover a manufacturing defect or other hidden problem, it is interpreted by the market as a "guarantee" of operation, and even non-manufacturing defects and outright random failures end up being covered,

[Sportymonk]

From their web site

All our products are "permanent" replacements for all Functional Fluids (Lubricants & Coolants) that you are now currently using in your vehicle(s).

Conventional Fluids must be periodically and frequently replaced to maintain your vehicle in operating condition.

Our products, once installed, need no further maintenance or replacement during the typical service life of vehicle.

Yeah, right. Like a lifetime guarantee on a garden hose. When it breaks, the lifetime of the hose if over.



Seriously, you can go a longtime with no oil change on any filter and oil, probably longer than these folks will be in business. I would like to see how they handle claims in 15 years when motors, transmissions, etc fail.

[william489]

Guys, the subject of this thread could be misleading for some folks. I don't really believe those 15-year/150K stuffs, I find it hard to believe, and I enjoy maintaining my pilot on schedule.

However, after reading their writeup about 5W-20, I realized that my Nissan uses 5W-30, and my friend's Land Cruiser/4Runner uses 15W-40. So Honda's one is the thinner one here. Toyota's engine also has a good name on it.

So if you were Honda, I guess the only reason they are recommending 5W-20 is because it is good on fuel economy, nothing but that. Will it hurt engine, I don't know, but it will probably won't protect engine as effectively as SAE grade 30 or 40.

[humanoid]

The newer Toyota Tacomas and 4Runners with the 4.0L V6 now specify the use of 5w20 weight oil. The speculation on various Toyota sites was the whole CAFE and fuel economy arguement. So it is not only Honda that is using this weight oil. IIRC, some Chrysler vehicles also run it too.

[Sportymonk]

Can't remember where it is in the myriad of oil posts here but if I remember correctly, it was noted that thicker oils cannot adequately lubricate engines due to the smaller and tighter clearances. The lighter oil is needed to provide adequate lubrication, especially in new design engines.

[andyschneider]

Our '07 Ford Freestyle requires 5W20 - the Motorcraft Syn Blend stuff you buy at walmart for $10.32 for a 5 quart jug. I've changed the oil twice already, and both times the oil was at the full mark before I changed - not a drop used - period. So, this makes 5 engines in the past 5 years - 2 different manufacturers - wehre I've not used a drop between changes while using 5W20. FUD on that website.....

andy

[N_Jay]

Originally posted by william489


So if you were Honda, I guess the only reason they are recommending 5W-20 is because it is good on fuel economy, nothing but that. Will it hurt engine, I don't know, but it will probably won't protect engine as effectively as SAE grade 30 or 40.

You sure.

Maybe the issue is the engine has to be manufactured to take advantage of the thinner oil.
Maybe Honda has more confidence in their engines and engineering than Toyota has?

Remember, Toyota had the sludge problem.

[william489]

I guess the message I want to drive home is that we, as consumers, no matter how much we love and enjoy our Pilot, we need to keep in mind that this is pure *business* for Honda.

It is Honda's best interest to keep the Pilot "good enough", for their second-to-none reputation (I guess Toyota has best overall quality and reliability, as most mechanics would say). One example about this "good enough" is that for my 06 Pilot EXL, there is an AUX button, but no aux input jack for mp3 player. This is very simple for Honda to include in year 2006, and demands are there. But apparently folks at Honda decided not to do for good *business* reasons, ie, the cost of $5.

As I said before, like all drug companies, it is about business, nothing but that, even when it means people's life.

So the community like HondaPilot.org, is extremely helpful, we get information exchanged here, acquire good and practical tips, at times, we get a couple myths debunked, if any.

[xGS]

So, where does this leave the premise that the majority of engine wear happens right after each cold start -
and that a thinner/lighter oil, which flows more readily when cold, helps reduce such wear?

[whizmo]

Originally posted by Sportymonk
Can't remember where it is in the myriad of oil posts here but if I remember correctly, it was noted that thicker oils cannot adequately lubricate engines due to the smaller and tighter clearances. The lighter oil is needed to provide adequate lubrication, especially in new design engines.

This sounds good, but these oils are liquids and the clearances in an engine are plenty big enough to allow several billion thicknesses of the oil molecules to get into the "smaller and tighter clearances". The term "thin" implies that somehow a lighter wieght oil is more nimble and and is better for tighter clerances, but actually the opposite is true - when you have small clearances is is even more important for the oil to remain stable and and keep metal-to-metal contact from occurring and thicker oils are better at this.

IOW, this rationale, bandied about on the net, has no engineering basis.

- Mark