Used Oil Analysis, high copper and aluminum

[thomasj2]

Is anyone testing their used oil? I'd like to see what others folks have for test data.

After 23K miles the copper levels are coming down, yet the aluminum and iron are going up. I attribute the sodium and silicon to winter driving, tons of salt and sand on the roads in upstate NY. The tester said to ignore the oxidation numbers, the syn throws off the test machine.

The additive package on the oil looks great, so the duration is not excessive. The oil is Mobil1 synthetic. No makeup oil, the filter is OEM, large old stock 305. The mileage is 80% highway at 75mph, with a monthly average of 2000 miles.

Odometer 5K-10K 10K-16K 16K-23K
OCI 5K 6K 7.5K
visc100 11 11.1 13.2
water 0 0 0
SOOT 0 0.3 0
fuel 0 0 0
glycol 0 0 0
FE 17 12 45
CR 2 0 6
PB 2 1 4
CU 64 45 50
SN 0 0 0
AL 3 11 24
SI 30 11 13
NA 13 9 17
MO 70 45 62
K 0 0 2
NITR 0 0 0
OXID 11.1 0 13.2
SAE 30 30 30
SYN 0 0 0
TBN 8.1 8.4 8

[john802]

Check here on oil analysis done on gilberttribe's Pilot.

[Larryl]

Hondas show high copper and aluminum, it's the spike in iron that you should watch. M1 does sometimes how high iron levels, when could indicate wear. Is the spike when you changed to M1? Go to bobistheoilguy.com, scroll down to the Used Oil Analysis category and look around, lots of information.

[thomasj2]

All 3 samples used the same M1 syn oil. I'm going to retest at 5000 miles, if the iron and copper are down, I'll blame the winter weather or a bad test. If they are still high I'll let Honda take a look while it's still under warrantee.

[john802]

I'm surprise that between 16K - 23K the iron contents increase from 12 to 45 although your TBN shows plenty of additives left on the oil.

[Bugshu]

Mobil 1 is sort of known for throwing off high iron. Id be careful in extending your drain much past 7500 miles. Yes the Mobil 1 will have TBN to spare but there are other good reasons to change your oil.

Have you changed your air filter recently? Id probably recommend changing it every 15,000 miles. And you are at 23,000.

I might recommend a Wix air filter and a Pure 1 L14459 oil filter in the future if you are going to go for extended drains.

Im not quite the greatest expert on reading UOA's but it almost seems like your Pilot is sucking dirt.

High silicone readings usually come from the air filter. It could be new and not sealed properly or maybe its older and needs to be changed.

The greatest oil in the world isnt going to help you if you have pollution entering your engine.

Overall, this isnt a bad report. Its ok actually. Aluminum and Iron seem high but you have been extending your drains from 5K, 6K, and now 7k. Id call it a day and not go beyond 7.5 on your next drain.

Im not sure why being in NY you feel a need to run a 30 viscosity oil against mostly easy highway miles.

I think with a high quality 20 viscosity synthetic that you might see your wear numbers improve and also you might improve your gas mileage.

Id point you towards Redline 5W-20 as an initial compromise. Its actually closer to 30 viscosity than you might imagine and you could gradually step down towards a 20 if you wanted to play it safe. Not all oils rated as having a viscosity of 20 are exactly 20. Redline 5W-20 is close to 30 as is Mobil 1 OW-20. The thing is that they have different viscosities at different temperatures and both of these oils probably protect as well as most 30 viscosity oils while holding onto the benefits of a 20.

M1 OW-20 is one of 3 oils that I recommend and its been discontinued. I do not recommend the new M1 5W-20. My current recommendations are Royal Purple 5W-20, Redline 5W-20 and Mobil 1 OW-20 if you can find it. I will probably switch to Pennzoil Platinum OW-20 as a third recommendation over the M1 5W-20 once the new Pennzoil Platinum line hits the shelves.

I just dont think a 30 viscosity oil is helping you.

Happy Motoring All,



Bugshu

[RipRocK]

Hey, thomasj2, I just wanted to suggest to you to post your oil anaysis over at www.bobistheoilguys.com. I don't know the first thing about cars, let alone some cryptic oil analysis results, but there've been many people who routinely post their oil analysis at that site and receive expert advice.

That's not to say that this forum lacks as such. Just look at bugshu's comments and others as well. There certaily are very knowledgeable members here. However, seeing as how your post pertains to oil, I thought I'd suggest you check out www.bobistheoilguys.com see what kind of response you get.

Just was wondering, which oil analysis service did you use to ascertain your results? Thanks for your time and courtesy.

[Aru4mie]

Originally posted by Bugshu, to quote in part:

Mobil 1 is sort of known for throwing off high iron. Id be careful in extending your drain much past 7500 miles. Yes the Mobil 1 will have TBN to spare but there are other good reasons to change your oil.

Id point you towards Redline 5W-20 as an initial compromise. Its actually closer to 30 viscosity than you might imagine and you could gradually step down towards a 20 if you wanted to play it safe. Not all oils rated as having a viscosity of 20 are exactly 20. Redline 5W-20 is close to 30 as is Mobil 1 OW-20. The thing is that they have different viscosities at different temperatures and both of these oils probably protect as well as most 30 viscosity oils while holding onto the benefits of a 20.

M1 OW-20 is one of 3 oils that I recommend and its been discontinued. I do not recommend the new M1 5W-20. My current recommendations are Royal Purple 5W-20, Redline 5W-20 and Mobil 1 OW-20 if you can find it. I will probably switch to Pennzoil Platinum OW-20 as a third recommendation over the M1 5W-20 once the new Pennzoil Platinum line hits the shelves.

Happy Motoring All,



Bugshu [/QUOTE]



Having realized I was driving under "severe driving conditions", I did my 1st oil change at 5k instead of 7.5k. I used Mobil 1 5W-20 synthetic oil.

After having read your post about the new Mobil 1 5W-20 as opposed to the discontinued Mobil 1 OW-20, I am now inclined to switch to either Redline or Royal Purple.

At what mileage can I switch brands. Can I do it now or do I still have to wait. My mileage reading is currently at 6,105.

Please advise.

Thanks

Aru4mie

[RipRocK]

Originally posted by Bugshu
[snip]
M1 OW-20 is one of 3 oils that I recommend and its been discontinued. I do not recommend the new M1 5W-20.[snp]
Happy Motoring All,



Bugshu

Hi Bugshu, what is it about the new M1 5W-20 oil that you don't like? When I heard the news at first, I thought it was great since 5W-20 is the spec oil for the Pilot. Has Mobil changed the composition of the oil for the worse? Thanks.

[john802]

Some car manufacturers uses Mobil 1 as the factory oil of their best cars.

Mobil 1 is factory fill in:

* Chevrolet Corvette
* All Porsche vehicles
* Mercedes-Benz AMG vehicles
* Dodge Viper
* Ford Mustang Cobra R
* All Aston Martin cars

[Bugshu]

Hrmm,

Thomas did post on Bobs and those guys are a bit more fanatical about oil than even me. I think they overreacted to his wear numbers. Perhaps if Thomas changed his air filter and got the dirt out of his oil his wear numbers would improve. I still would change to a 20 but then again Im famous or perhaps infamous for believing in the merits of thinnter oil.

M1 is factory fill in many cars. My response to that is sort of so what? Its a nice advertising and marketing ploy. It probably costs Mobil less to do that than it does to put ads on TV at the Daytona 500 and some of those customers will stay on Mobil 1 for life.

Mobil 1 is not a bad oil and its still synthetic and its still good. Aru4mie, I wouldnt worry about keeping that oil in your Pilot until you hit 10K miles. If you got 5K miles out of the standard factory fill and were happy with it then the M1 should last you 5K miles easy. Mobil even suggests that their regular dino is good to 5K miles so the M1 should get you there with ease. Your car isnt going to blow up or anything. Its still a fine oil..

The reason that I dont recommend M1 is that its really not the best at anything. RP is a PAO based 5W-20 and I think that it has a better add pack and perhaps more Moly to improve performance. Redline is the most shear stable oil available and also has a great add pack but its hard to find and very expensive.

Mobil 1 used to have an advantage in that it had a winter rating down to 0 and you had to respect it. Now that M1 has a winter rating of 5 and is a 5W-20 then you have to compare it directly to RP and Redline and I just would put it in 3rd place in that race.

Pennzoil Platinum is coming out with a brand new synthetic that IS winter rated down to O and I like OW-20 oils. Start up wear is often guestimated to be 85% of engine wear and I like motor oils that start flowing in a hurry.

I dont have time to look up the virgin oil analysis and post the numbers but here is what happened in a nutshell. The government posted strict environmental standards for oil in meeting the next generation of motor oils also known as the SM and Ilsac GF-4 standards.

Mobil reduced their adds in their oil such as Zinc, Calcium, Phosporous etc... etc...... to meet the new standards. Mobil 1 is generally rated SM, Ilsac GF-4. Mobil 1 then came out with a next generation product line that didnt meet the new standards but had even a slightly improved add package and they claimed it had 25% more supersyn (Mobils name for their add package) than the old Mobil 1.

The truth of the matter is that regular Mobil 1 has been downgraded quite a bit to meet government standards and the new EP line is perhaps slightly better than the old M1. Mobil 1 chose an advertising gimmick of being able to run the oil for 15,000 miles to cover up what was really happening.

Mobil 1 has been downgraded and has less additives to protect your engine than it used to have. They have also dropped the O winter rating of the oil and have given into the cheaper and lower quality 5 winter oil that most everyone else makes.

Yes the new EP oils have 25% more additives than M1 but a lot of it is because M1 was downgraded and the quality reduced. M1 is kind of like a 13 ounce pound of coffee. The container is the same size but you arent getting as much in it.

Unfortunately Mobil didnt come out with a new oil in the EP line in the 20 viscosity range and they wont. It would be hard for a 20 viscosity oil to go 15,000 miles.

Therefore for Pilot owners who like to stay with the manufacturers recommendations and use a 20 they are getting a worse oil in the 20 Mobil 1 lineup without any comparable product picking up the slack in the EP lineup.

Mobil 1 isnt a bad oil or anything and its still pretty good. But its no longer great. Its not even as good as it used to be.

I look at the oils that have benefits that clearly lead the field and they are Royal Purple with adds and moly, Redline with shear stability and massive adds, and Pennzoil Platinum for their O Winter rating.

So those are the 3 I recommend. People running Mobil 1 5W-20 arent going to see anything bad happen to their cars or anything like that. Its still better than most any dino oil you can buy.

Lets just say that the new Mobil 1 doesnt lead the field anymore in the quest for greatness in the motor oil marketplace. They are living off of past reputation and the ability to muscle their way onto the shelves of big box stores.

Mobil 1 5W-20 is a good oil but IMO there are better options to consider and thats why I recommend them.

Happy Piloting All,



Bugshu

[john802]

If it's good enough for Porche, MB AMG, Corvette and Aston Martin to use M1 oil, it will be good enough for my Pilot. Also, I can get it at a good discount at work.

BTW, the new M1 oil exceeds the requirements & will be ILSAC GF-4 license by the end of this month if not sooner. The only changes that's made from the old M1 to the new M1 is the viscosity(they drop the 0W20) and reformulate 1 of the additives. Thats why the color of the new oil is lighter than before. Matter of fact, the new M1 added more additives and increases the % of the other additives from the old M1 formulation.

All lubricating oil manufacturer must meet the new ILSAC GF-4 standard by the end of this month. The old ILSAC GF-3 standard will not be license to the oil manufacturer as of May 2005.

[Larryl]

The RP people say that their synthetic street oil is a hydrocracked Group III. To me that's a synthetic in name only just like Castrol Syntec. It appears that most new and improved oil formulas are marketing improvements. When a company like Mobil starts selling more oil, they find ways to make it cheaper so they can keep their profit margins. Mobil 1 is a good oil, but in UOA's it produces only average Fe numbers. The good thing about Mobil 1 is that you can buy it everywhere. With a Pep Boys one dollar calendar you can get a screaming deal on a case of the stuff. Some of these places even sell Royal Purple. But the ringer in this group is Red Line. It's a polyol ester, which is a very expensive starting point. But there is something interesting about this company. They use their own formula, mix it them selves and bottle it in their own plant. In other words, unlike almost every other specialized oil product, they own, control and do everything themselves. Companies like Castrol and Royal Purple do none of it. What's even worse, some companies like Castrol produce the same product, like Syntec, German Castrol and others from many different supplies in different locations and different formulas, all with the same labels. After all it's just business and how many customers really care about what's in the bottle. My answer is, I'm one that does. I choose my synthetic carefully and change it myself and stay away from companies that play marketing games with their oil.

[Bugshu]

Hey each to their own and if you believe in it then more power to you.

Why is it that the top of the line EP oils do not meet SM - GF-4 standards? Its because they put more adds in them instead of reducing them and they dont meet the spec.

Wouldnt that be because the new standards require reductions in zinc and other additives?

To say that M1 is a better oil because it meets the new standards may be a matter of opinion.

Anyway, the new Pennzoil synthetic also meets the GF-4 and SM standards and also maintains its OW rating.

I doubt that you could make a case that additives were actually increased with the new M1 over the old M1 but if you want to believe thats the case then ok. Ive yet to have seen a Virgin Oil Analysis that showcased more additives for the new M1 5W-20 versus the old OW-20. In fact, they all seem to show reduced adds. I dont feel like looking them up because I probably wont change peoples minds but you can go to Bitog and check it for yourself at bobistheoilguy.com and then click on the virgin oil analysis link.

Mobil 1 is a good oil and if you want to use it then more power to you.

IMO its no longer gods gift to motor oil.

I would rather Mobil 1 spend money to build the best oil available instead of signing licensing deals with Porsche, BMW and the rest.

When I finish the mods for my Pilot I will put it against the finest Lexus made and will probably win the war. My pilot will be quieter, prettier, with a better sound system, and more luxurious, as well as getting better gas mileage and having improved reliability. I wont be using the new M1 products. But then again, Mobil doesnt try to buy me off like they do the Corvette people.

Truly, I think it would be better if Mobil 1 was built by chemists and engineers rather than the marketing department.

25 years ago, Mobil 1 was the best but they have been living off that reputation for a long time and others have caught up and perhaps surpassed them.

To each there own. I present my own opinions and let others decide for themselves.

There arent right and wrong answers and each persons needs vary. There are people using supertech oil and they could make a case that its the best oil for them and I probably wouldnt argue.

Happy Piloting All,




Bugshu

[Sunday Rider]

Originally posted by Larryl
The RP people say that their synthetic street oil is a hydrocracked Group III.
SNIP
But the ringer in this group is Red Line. It's a polyol ester, which is a very expensive starting point. But there is something interesting about this company. They use their own formula, mix it them selves and bottle it in their own plant. In other words, unlike almost every other specialized oil product, they own, control and do everything themselves. Companies like Castrol and Royal Purple do none of it.
SNIP
I choose my synthetic carefully and change it myself and stay away from companies that play marketing games with their oil.

So Larryl which oil do you use? I seemed to remember you like RP.
Thanks