Vsa Applies Full Brake For No Reason - Honda Pilot

new-bis · 11-22-2006, 11:09 AM

This is the third occasion in two years and 58,000 miles on our 2005 Pilot, that the VSA system has displayed a caution symbol on the instrument panel. in addition to putting the vehicle into a full braking mode from a speed of 55 mph with no warning. We have owned this vehicle since it was new and this has happened three times. Each time the tire pressure warning lights have indicated improper inflation on one or more tires, which was indeed found to be true, but only by a couple of pounds of pressure. On one occasion we took the vehicle to Honda only for them to tell us that the right rear tire had 24 lbs of pressure and the left rear had 56 lbs of pressure. I personally check the tire pressure on a regular basis on all four of our vehicles, because I am a tire wear fanatic. So Honda said the VSA system was possibly fooled into thinking the vehicle was out of control. System fooled? Maybe, but the tire pressure assesment is a crock.
Has this happened to any one else or are we special?

VettePilot · 11-22-2006, 11:55 AM

Did they use the HDS (Honda Diagnostic System) to actually check for failure codes in all systems?

new-bis · 11-22-2006, 09:08 PM

The dealership told us that there were no indications from the diagnostics that would indicate this type of behavior. In fact I feel they did not believe us. I have posted this problem once before, in January 06, but I was suprised to to discover that no other reports were posted, and I received no replies.

VettePilot · 11-24-2006, 08:28 AM

The VSA uses two main sensors.
Those sensors are the steering angle (the direction you are steering) sensor and the lateral-acceleration sensor (vehicle Yaw) to determine corrective action.
Usually, VSA would apply the brakes on one side of the vehicle only in an attempt to bring the vehicle back to a safe steering angle.

When this braking happens, does it pull toward either side or is it straight line braking?

jdeanski · 11-24-2006, 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by new-bis
On one occasion we took the vehicle to Honda only for them to tell us that the right rear tire had 24 lbs of pressure and the left rear had 56 lbs of pressure.

56??? I hope you mistyped.

rocky · 11-24-2006, 08:57 AM

You must have used a different name in January as its not showing on your name as a thread you started.

The tire pressure differential is possibly the key to your problem
56 to 24 ouch.

You are lucky the tire didn't explode

new-bis · 11-24-2006, 09:06 AM

The braking action is straight line full braking with no pull to either side. The pulsing action of the ABS could be felt and heard. On one occasion the vehicle behind us had to take evasive action. Fortunately, the other occurances happened on a remote road with no other vehicles around.

The 56 lbs of tire pressure is not a typo. The dealership lost all credibility with me when they tried to tell me this. Where did this incredible presure come from?

VettePilot · 11-24-2006, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by new-bis
The braking action is straight line full braking with no pull to either side. The pulsing action of the ABS could be felt and heard....

This sounds like an ABS event instead of a VSA event. Even though many subsystems are part of both the ABS and VSA, the description you give sounds like ABS.
VSA can be turned off with the switch on the dash, ABS can't.

VettePilot · 11-25-2006, 08:25 AM

I've come up with a different idea on this.

Along with VSA and ABS, the Pilot has Electronic Brake Assist.

Brake Assist (BA) is designed to "aid" a person, in a panic stop, that does not exert enough pressure on the brake pedal. It does this by adding more brake pressure for you.
BA starts to learn a driver's braking style on each engine start -- it assumes a different person is behind the wheel each time the vehicle is started.

If you have ANY odd braking habits, I would stop doing them -- as an example, if you use your right foot on the accelerator and your left foot on the brake pedal, I would stop that immediately and use your right foot for both all the time.
If you think about it, the first time you hit the brake pedal after the engine is started is when you want to shift to (D)rive. When shifting to D, I would make sure I push on the brake pedal with enough force that the computer recognizes that I don't do things too gingerly. That way, the BA doesn't think I need that much assistance. Remember, BA is studying your braking style all the time and deciding how much assistance you need -- if you barely touch the pedal on a braking event 99% of the time, it thinks you need more assistance in a panic situation, and may determine you are in a panic situation when you aren't.

If the above doesn't eliminate the problem, the only sensor that is involved with BA is the brake pressure sensor. You might want to ask the technician to replace the sensor.

Added Note: I have seen vehicles pulling a hill with the brake lights flickering off and on. This tells me the driver is probably resting his left foot on the brake pedal all the time, even when applying more gas with the right foot.
This would greatly confuse BA.
BA would probably interpret this as hundreds of light brake jabs and think you need a lot of assistance.

Teresakae · 01-16-2007, 06:29 PM

Hello everyone. Thank Goodness for this place. I just took my Honda Pilot in (2005) for the second time. The car just locks up. I mean locks up. Fortunately I have not been hit from behind......yet. Honda (New Orleans/Westbank) says there is nothing wrong with it. They can't find anything and want to give it back. I am scared to death to drive the thing. Especially after reading this thread. Good night. The Tech. claims he called in to the "big guys" in the tech dept. and they say they have never heard of this problem.... I am the first to every bring my car in for this. What???? I am thinking I should refuse to take it back. I mean, I could seriously get killed here.

Anyway, I just wanted to go on record as another person with this problem. I have printed this up to take to Honda to prove that I am not insane. Now we have another case added.

Teresakae · 01-16-2007, 07:17 PM

I also wanted to add that:

When this happens, I am not breaking! I am just driving along and wham...brakes slam on. Very dangerous indeed. If anyone else is having this problem please document. It is clear that Honda is trying to shove this under the rug.

rocky · 01-16-2007, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Teresakae
I also wanted to add that:

When this happens, I am not breaking! I am just driving along and wham...brakes slam on. Very dangerous indeed. If anyone else is having this problem please document. It is clear that Honda is trying to shove this under the rug.

I'm willing to bet that its not Honda. Just that the dealer isn't believing you.

Suggest that you consider writing a letter to the dealer cc Honda send them certified mail, saying that based on your experiences (which I am sure you have documented times places etc) you beleive that the vehicle is a safety hazard that could result in property damage and bodily injury as a result of this fault.

Me I suspect a short in the system tricking the system into braking.

archie · 01-16-2007, 07:43 PM

If there really is a problem this severe, you should consider filing a complaint with NHTSA ODI (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration Office of Defects Investigation)

http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/

Braking problems are a real safety issue.

Teresakae · 01-17-2007, 05:27 AM

Thank You Archie. I am going to do all the above. I have documentation of two incidents in that I took the car in both times. The first time it happened we called in. They blew us off saying it was normal. Since on that day it was raining.....we bought it. But these last two times are in no way normal.
The second time they had my husband go in a disconnect something so we could get it in.

This last time I was a bit annoyed and said to my husband, no you are not working for Honda today. I am calling a tow truck. And I did.

My husband called Honda yesterday and they said they can't find a problem to come and get it. My husband plans to pick it up today but I don't want to. I won't drive it. Like you said. It is not safe. Tailgating is a common occurance these days.... I can't tell you how many times I have had a semi a mere 6 feet behind me. scary.

I wish I knew where these other cases were as my dealership claims they called headquarters and no one has ever heard of these.... hmmm.

pointech · 01-17-2007, 07:35 AM

Interesting theory. For those that have experienced this problem, do you use 2 feet (1 for gas, one for brake) or 1 foot?

11-22-2006, 11:09 AM	#1 (permalink)
new-bis Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Vsa Applies Full Brake For No Reason This is the third occasion in two years and 58,000 miles on our 2005 Pilot, that the VSA system has displayed a caution symbol on the instrument panel. in addition to putting the vehicle into a full braking mode from a speed of 55 mph with no warning. We have owned this vehicle since it was new and this has happened three times. Each time the tire pressure warning lights have indicated improper inflation on one or more tires, which was indeed found to be true, but only by a couple of pounds of pressure. On one occasion we took the vehicle to Honda only for them to tell us that the right rear tire had 24 lbs of pressure and the left rear had 56 lbs of pressure. I personally check the tire pressure on a regular basis on all four of our vehicles, because I am a tire wear fanatic. So Honda said the VSA system was possibly fooled into thinking the vehicle was out of control. System fooled? Maybe, but the tire pressure assesment is a crock. Has this happened to any one else or are we special?

11-25-2006, 08:25 AM	#9 (permalink)
VettePilot Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Mexico Beach, FL Posts: 254 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Different theory I've come up with a different idea on this. Along with VSA and ABS, the Pilot has Electronic Brake Assist. Brake Assist (BA) is designed to "aid" a person, in a panic stop, that does not exert enough pressure on the brake pedal. It does this by adding more brake pressure for you. BA starts to learn a driver's braking style on each engine start -- it assumes a different person is behind the wheel each time the vehicle is started. If you have ANY odd braking habits, I would stop doing them -- as an example, if you use your right foot on the accelerator and your left foot on the brake pedal, I would stop that immediately and use your right foot for both all the time. If you think about it, the first time you hit the brake pedal after the engine is started is when you want to shift to (D)rive. When shifting to D, I would make sure I push on the brake pedal with enough force that the computer recognizes that I don't do things too gingerly. That way, the BA doesn't think I need that much assistance. Remember, BA is studying your braking style all the time and deciding how much assistance you need -- if you barely touch the pedal on a braking event 99% of the time, it thinks you need more assistance in a panic situation, and may determine you are in a panic situation when you aren't. If the above doesn't eliminate the problem, the only sensor that is involved with BA is the brake pressure sensor. You might want to ask the technician to replace the sensor. Added Note: I have seen vehicles pulling a hill with the brake lights flickering off and on. This tells me the driver is probably resting his left foot on the brake pedal all the time, even when applying more gas with the right foot. This would greatly confuse BA. BA would probably interpret this as hundreds of light brake jabs and think you need a lot of assistance.

01-17-2007, 07:35 AM	#15 (permalink)
pointech Registered User Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Mechanicsville, VA 23111 Posts: 137 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	VettePilot theory Interesting theory. For those that have experienced this problem, do you use 2 feet (1 for gas, one for brake) or 1 foot?

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11-22-2006, 11:55 AM	#2 (permalink)
VettePilot Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Mexico Beach, FL Posts: 254 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Did they use the HDS (Honda Diagnostic System) to actually check for failure codes in all systems?

11-22-2006, 09:08 PM	#3 (permalink)
new-bis Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	The dealership told us that there were no indications from the diagnostics that would indicate this type of behavior. In fact I feel they did not believe us. I have posted this problem once before, in January 06, but I was suprised to to discover that no other reports were posted, and I received no replies.

11-24-2006, 08:28 AM	#4 (permalink)
VettePilot Registered User Join Date: Nov 2006 Location: Mexico Beach, FL Posts: 254 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	The VSA uses two main sensors. Those sensors are the steering angle (the direction you are steering) sensor and the lateral-acceleration sensor (vehicle Yaw) to determine corrective action. Usually, VSA would apply the brakes on one side of the vehicle only in an attempt to bring the vehicle back to a safe steering angle. When this braking happens, does it pull toward either side or is it straight line braking?

11-24-2006, 08:57 AM	#6 (permalink)
rocky Super Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Red Sox Nation Posts: 8,773 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	You must have used a different name in January as its not showing on your name as a thread you started. The tire pressure differential is possibly the key to your problem 56 to 24 ouch. You are lucky the tire didn't explode

11-24-2006, 09:06 AM	#7 (permalink)
new-bis Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 3 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	The braking action is straight line full braking with no pull to either side. The pulsing action of the ABS could be felt and heard. On one occasion the vehicle behind us had to take evasive action. Fortunately, the other occurances happened on a remote road with no other vehicles around. The 56 lbs of tire pressure is not a typo. The dealership lost all credibility with me when they tried to tell me this. Where did this incredible presure come from?

01-16-2007, 06:29 PM	#10 (permalink)
Teresakae Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 14 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Hello everyone. Thank Goodness for this place. I just took my Honda Pilot in (2005) for the second time. The car just locks up. I mean locks up. Fortunately I have not been hit from behind......yet. Honda (New Orleans/Westbank) says there is nothing wrong with it. They can't find anything and want to give it back. I am scared to death to drive the thing. Especially after reading this thread. Good night. The Tech. claims he called in to the "big guys" in the tech dept. and they say they have never heard of this problem.... I am the first to every bring my car in for this. What???? I am thinking I should refuse to take it back. I mean, I could seriously get killed here. Anyway, I just wanted to go on record as another person with this problem. I have printed this up to take to Honda to prove that I am not insane. Now we have another case added.

01-16-2007, 07:17 PM	#11 (permalink)
Teresakae Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 14 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	I also wanted to add that: When this happens, I am not breaking! I am just driving along and wham...brakes slam on. Very dangerous indeed. If anyone else is having this problem please document. It is clear that Honda is trying to shove this under the rug.

01-16-2007, 07:43 PM	#13 (permalink)
archie Registered User Join Date: May 2003 Location: CA Posts: 165 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	If there really is a problem this severe, you should consider filing a complaint with NHTSA ODI (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration Office of Defects Investigation) http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/ Braking problems are a real safety issue.

01-17-2007, 05:27 AM	#14 (permalink)
Teresakae Junior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 14 Feedback Score: 0 reviews	Thank You Archie. I am going to do all the above. I have documentation of two incidents in that I took the car in both times. The first time it happened we called in. They blew us off saying it was normal. Since on that day it was raining.....we bought it. But these last two times are in no way normal. The second time they had my husband go in a disconnect something so we could get it in. This last time I was a bit annoyed and said to my husband, no you are not working for Honda today. I am calling a tow truck. And I did. My husband called Honda yesterday and they said they can't find a problem to come and get it. My husband plans to pick it up today but I don't want to. I won't drive it. Like you said. It is not safe. Tailgating is a common occurance these days.... I can't tell you how many times I have had a semi a mere 6 feet behind me. scary. I wish I knew where these other cases were as my dealership claims they called headquarters and no one has ever heard of these.... hmmm.

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