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Touring 9 Speed Tranny - POOF! @ 26K Miles

22K views 47 replies 26 participants last post by  cward0625 
#1 ·
Well. My trans started making a "weird noise" on the 4-5 shift a few weeks ago. Figured I'd wait until it go a little less "intermittent" before taking it in.

Yesterday I got both on "Transmission System Problem" & "Emission System Problem" CEL on my MID. Still drove.

This morning - car wouldn't go into D. Flatbedded to dealer. Loaner car issued.

Call back from dealer went like this:

Transmission has an internal cooler (from what they told me), that started leaking coolant into the tranny.

Tranny on order.

Rick
 
#2 ·
Better it happened before the warranty expires. Did you have the external cooler installed?
 
#6 ·
Can you describe the sound? If started to hear a squeak every time I try to excellerate after slowing to about 20-25mph. It only happens on the 3-2 downshift, but it is consistent. I have not noticed it when in S mode or shifting manually.
 
#7 ·
I DO drive it like I stole it (it's a SPORT utility vehicle) and spend most of my around town driving in S-Mode on the tranny.

Rick
How much might this factor into the equation? >:)
 
#14 ·
I DO drive it like I stole it (it's a SPORT utility vehicle) and spend most of my around town driving in S-Mode on the tranny.
How much might this factor into the equation?
I certainly can't help beating the crap out of your tranny for 26K miles, but with a 5 year 60K mile powertrain warranty why worry?
 
#8 · (Edited)
If towing or sporty driving can cause a transmission cooler to fail, we are all screwed. It is caused by an internal leak. Manufacturing defect. I think what they are referring to is the fluid-to-fluid heat exchanger ( automatic transmission fluid - to - engine coolant ) that is standard on all 3rd-gen Pilots and MDXs. On parts diagrams, it is called an AT oil cooler for 9-sp transmission, or AT oil warmer for 6-sp transmission. Whatever. Different plumbing but same basic idea. But in either case, it is standard issue and separate from the accessory ( air-to-ATF ) ATF cooler that is recommended for towing. The irony is that a fluid-to-fluid ATF cooler inside the radiators of 1st-gen Pilots and MDXs has been a source of failure that took out lots of transmissions, including one of mine, long out of warranty. $5000 education in transmission coolers. :3:

BTW, what happens is that the leak lets engine coolant mix into the ATF. That's bad. If there was a bad manufacturing run of these things, this could turn into quite a debacle.

Sorry about your misfortune, Rick, but now I'm darn glad I went with HondaCare.

Text Diagram Font Line Parallel


Text Line Font Diagram Parallel
 
#9 ·
rsconsulting; said:
...
I DO drive it like I stole it...

Rick
plplplpl said:
How much might this factor into the equation?
Sorry rick for the tranny troubles. YUP plplplpl may be right but DRIVING IT LIKE U STOLE IT is the only way to go IMO I hope it gets fixed better than new and you go back to D.I.L.U.S.I. again :wink:
 
#11 ·
Again, I really don't think DILYSI has anything to do with this failure. Pressure differential across the fluid-to-fluid heat exchanger might unmask a latent defect, but AFAIK the pressure in the engine coolant circuit is primarily a function of temperature. So I guess in theory extended running at max temp could cause it to fail sooner rather than later, but the same for driving like a granny across the desert southwest in summer. Desert dwellers beware! :wink:
 
#10 ·
Try to cover all my responses in one post here.

1 - Did tow - right out of break-in miles. 2,000 lbs for 5,000 miles on a road trip right after purchase.

2 - Noise on shift, sounds like a metal-on-metal squeek. If it didn't happen at the same exact point in the shift (and couldn't be replicated by manually shifting), I might have thought is was a motor or exhaust mount.

3 - Yes to warranty, yes to Hondacare.

4 - Actually - the sport mode & paddle shifters were big fun for the first couple of months. Been running in Eco mode exclusively for the last 6-7 months for economy and to reduce the temptation to drive like an idiot. I doubt that "driving in a sporty fashion" had anything to do with the demise of the transmission. Manufacturing/design defects aside -

5 - While I pimped that I went up to the touring model almost exclusively BECAUSE I wanted the 9-speed - I probably would have been just as well served with an EX-L/Nav - as I don't really use any of the other "upgraded feature set" of the touring. All in all - upgrading from my '12 EX-L was mainly an "impulse buy". I'm not disappointed with my '16 - but with 76K on the odo of my '12, I probably would have kept it until just short of it's HondaCare running out - before trading it in.

6 - No it doesn't have the "add-on" tranny cooler - they just weren't available for months after I got the car (are they available now), and I don't have much towing planned in the future - so it's probably $$ saved by not putting it in. Add-on coolers ARE cheap insurance if you do a lot of towing (I had an aftermarket one on my '08 Element SC).

Rick
 
#13 ·
Maybe. Heat exchangers aren't really a novelty item and I doubt Honda manufactures this one, so I think it really comes down to Honda working with the supplier to identify any problems in production. The cooler is part of the design of the drivetrain, so they can't just yank them all out. They need a reliable replacement. AFAIK the same cooler is used in 2016+ MDX ( 9-speed trans ) and a very similar cooler is in all 2014-2015 MDXs and 6-speed 2016 Pilots. So that's a lot of vehicles.

Whether the rate of failure is within their specs and whether they will do good-will repairs out-of-warranty down the road or do a recall, to be proactive, is ultimately Honda's business decision. Unless NHTSA decides it is a safety issue and they give Honda a nudge...

Any QC engineers listening in? I'm just guessing.

I'm already at 30k miles on my Touring ( purchased June 2015, just like Rick ), so I'd be freaking out if I didn't have 120k HondaCare, but then there's that whole getting stranded in the middle of nowhere thing. Not good. Way too early for this kind of failure on these vehicles.
 
#16 ·
Do you guys have a link to the maintenance schedule for the 2016 Pilot?
How often does the differential fluid, transmission fluid and oil change need to be done?
 
#20 ·
Transmission service is a 100K miles. Not sure on the diff. Oil change intervals should be done when the MID tells you to. I'm averaging around 5K miles on mine - though the last one was 7K. I do Mobile1 Extended, so I COULD push my oil changes out a little further.


9 Speed is a sealed unit - no dip stick, no fill port. So there's no way of telling the level or condition of trans fluid.

Also - in my issue - there were no "external leaks" so there were no "telltale puddles" of fluid that usually tell you if you have a bad seal or other type of leak.

If this turns out to be an endemic issue (that is - a bad manufacturing run, where this issue is turning up a lot) - they would likely issue a TSB or "non-safety recall" on it and replace the radiators, rather than waiting for the cooler to go POP and end up having to replace a bunch of transmissions also.

Heading over to the dealer in a bit - to see what the ETA is on parts. Honda only pays $30 a day for the rental under warranty - and I HATE this Jeep Compass I'm stuck in - so I may have to pony up the upcharge to get into something a little more comfortable.

Rick
 
#26 · (Edited)
Sounds like the issue Nissan was having with the Frontier/Pathfinder/Xterra. Coolant contaminating the trans fluid due to radiator failures.

Difference here is that it took a class action lawsuit to light the fire under Nissan. Honda will step right up and address this swiftly and make the customers happy.
 
#31 ·
Exactly. And exactly why I was very bummed when they said that the Touring and Elite would have the 9spd exclusively. Honda could have sold me an Elite Pilot (for the last 3 years) if they hadn't blundered and put the 9spd in there. Some do love it, and that's great. You're not going to convince me, so don't try :)

Instead, we've now bought TWO brand new Toyota's because of Honda's decision-making. First, we were going to get a CR-V to replace our Saturn Eww (VUE)... This was 2 years ago. However, Honda didn't offer simple things like keyless entry, push button start, power liftgate, or any of the blind-spot technology at all. None of it. Not even an option. And they still wanted about the same as a comparable Rav4 with all of those said technologies. So I could either wait for Honda to include those in the 2015 model or get a 2014 (leftover 2013 turns out) Rav4 with all of those things.

Problem was, the '15 CR-V was slated to have the CVT transmission! Where do we sign for that Rav4? The one with all the new gadgetry but the tried and true 2.5L 4cyl and 6spd automatic. Yeah... decisions were easy. Then whadda you know? The CVT in the CR-V sucked SO BAD... It was hard NOT to gloat on the CRVownersclub forum (but I didn't... I simply offered comparisons as I saw them).

Fast Forward and the Pilot Elite (my first choice) is slated to be shipped with an exclusive 9spd. I always wanted a touring pilot (back when that was the top trim) and I knew one day I'd have one... well, not so fast. I drove one (an Elite or Touring, don't remember) and that transmission is all kinds of whacky to me. Between feeling the start-stop as if I had a small horse bumping into me at every stop sign to the constant shifting it does just to get to 35 MPH... and I've never even met anyone who has seen 8th or 9th gear..... I just don't like it. I know, I know, the double-digit gears are coming and are here to stay... but I'm not a huge fan of the shift behavior.

End of rant. I'll keep a close and optimistic eye on these issues but I don't plan on buying another vehicle for another 2 years and chances are it'll be a truck that rhymes with LaLoma and not shmidgeline
 
#35 · (Edited)
That's really misleading logic that assumes all Pilot owners with issues are on this forum, which as we all know isn't the case.

There have been two 6 speeds and 3-4 9 speeds reported on this forum, out of xx number of 3rd gen owners on this forum.

Edit: and I'm pretty sure the number of failed transmissions amongst registered users is actually higher than that for but trannies.
 
#39 · (Edited)
Here's a link to the 9-Speed ATF cooler installation instructions from H and A Accessories (Maita Honda's online store). Note in steps 2, 6 & 7 it refers to a "transmission fluid warmer", which is the same "transmission cooler" from the 9-speed parts diagram posted earlier. Page 7 details the required TCM software update.

Addition of the ATF Cooler Kit P/N 06255-5EZ-316 does not replace the Automatic/AT Cooler (what I and the attached instructions are referring to as a "transmission fluid warmer") P/N 06224-5J4-000. The Coolant lines are actually never unhooked during the installation and only the factory ATF lines are replaced. The factory ATF lines are replaced with lines that inlude a "tee" fitting to accommodate the auxiliary ATF cooler which is mounted on a bracket in front of the radiator. If P/N 06224-5J4-000 was the source of failure in this specific 9AT, the auxiliary cooler would've done nothing to mitigate that.

Does anyone know if any other Honda/Acura vehicles uses this specific transmission fluid warmer P/N 06224-5J4-000?
 

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#40 · (Edited)
Does anyone know if any other Honda/Acura vehicles uses this specific transmission fluid warmer P/N 06224-5J4-000?
2016 Acura MDX uses the same part. 2014-2015 MDX and 6-speed transmission variants of 2016 Pilot use a similar part that appears to have standard hose barbs for ATF lines. The 9-speed ATF connections are all rigid plumbing with O-rings and couplings. Both parts have standard hose connections for engine coolant hoses.

I believe your analysis is correct. Some pics from the family fleet follow.

Part in 2016 Pilot Touring: [ Part made in Canada??? ]

Auto part Fuel line Engine Automotive fuel system Pipe


Tee off radiator coolant line in Pilot:

Auto part Engine Vehicle Car Automotive engine part


Part in 2014 MDX ( with 6-speed transmission ):

Auto part Vehicle Exhaust manifold Car Engine
 
#43 · (Edited)
So, do I understand this right for the 9 speed model - no dipstick, no fill port, (presumably no drain port either, why would it be needed?)?

I see the possible desire to add a trans line cooler, but in addition to not addressing the OP's problem, just how would one add an accessory cooler - it adds to the fluid capacity of the trans system. That system is sealed. Can one even BUY the correct fluid? Is the correct fluid even know? I bring up the last two questions in case one would consider "pre-filling" the add on cooler with the correct fluid so as to compensate for the additional capacity. Keep in mind some model transmissions are quite fussy about the correct fluid level, could this be one of those? Speaking of which, what is the correct fluid level and how would you know you are there?

Another way to look at it is this is a "fluid for life" situation, I always wonder just who's life is being referred to in this type of situation? The manufacturer is telling me that when your trans fails - no problem - we have those in stock and can install one for you, for a price, but they are not saying it now. Anyone care to guess what the life expectancy of the transmission is (without any fluid change, of course)? I suspect just a bit longer than the longest Honda care available. I don't want to think about the replacement cost with labor too! This is one more step towards the disposable car.
 
#44 · (Edited)
It's not "fluid for life". The ZF 9-speed has fill and drain ports on the housing of the transmission, as well as an "overflow port" to set the fluid level. The fluid change interval is long, but not infinite. The ZF 9-speed does not, however, have a dip stick or associated tube. So if you are used to topping off fluid through the dip stick tube, that is off the menu. It uses a special ( and rather expensive ) ATF, but that is available through a Honda dealer and other sources. For better or worse, this transmission is used in multiple vehicles from several manufacturers, none of which are intended to be "disposable vehicles".

[edit] I think the fill port is visible in the lower right of the 2nd photo in my previous post. Right next to the little metal knob you would have to turn to release the parking pawl if your battery were completely dead and you wanted to move the car.
 
#46 ·
2016 Pilot Elite. 15000 miles They said the chirp was because a software up date needed. They updated the software and said drive it 30 miles. Drove it 30 miles and chirp still there. They said drive it for several days and bring it back in 6 days if still chirping. Drove it home and the engine had no power when turning a corner and the transmission shuddered. When I turned it off in the garage heard the fan running to cool the engine. I looked and temp gage said one mark off hot. Called the dealer and they said the software is giving a false reading on the engine temp. Drive it for 6 days and if not ok, bring it back. Drove 36 miles round trip and engine temp stayed one mark off hot. The next day I phoned Honda and stated that because they will pay for a locked engine or locked transmission, if they too recommended driving it for 6 more days. They stated no, opened a case, called the dealer and then told me to bring it back there right now. The dealer looked again and stated, and also showed me, the fluid in the radiator overflow was green with transmission fluid in it and was frothy. I then stated that for that to be, then radiator fluid is in the transmission too., He said yes. He said because Honda Motor company was notified by me, they have already authorized a new transmission, all new lines, rubber grommets and radiator if needed. He said it will be here a well and they are shipping all part to the dealer. They then paid for a loaner till it is finished.

Dealer said they still do not know where the mixing occurred.
 
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